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03-11-2007, 07:46 AM   #31
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Dana G..

"If you are taking picnic snapshots, jpeg might just be a way to go but if you want to make a decent photograph, shoot RAW. Just like we used to compare different developers and films, we now can compare different RAW converters (I use ACR exclusively, but I was a Dektol freak in the film days.......)

So don't even worry about a camera's jpeg processing! Personally, I think Canon overdoes it but that's their prerogative.

If you want to make a real photograph, give yourself all the latitude that you can get. Shoot RAW"

####

MJS

"I agree that the K10D has the capacity to produce better jpegs than any camera in it's class... and at least one that outclasses it (the D200).

What frustrates so many of us, is without shooting RAW, it doesn't.

Ben is right, shooting RAW is best, but workflow does not always allow for the time it takes to do that with 300+ images. Besides, I shouldn't need to shoot RAW to optimize the camera's output... geesh."

###

the sock puppets out number the sensible people so the sock puppets win..

its called consensus science.. and any one that thinks pentax isnt fully aware of the k10s dodgy jpegs is a fool..

trog

ps.. and MJS.. never get that clever in your power of argument that u can actually prove the fools to be what they are.. i have just been driven off a litttle none photographic forum for doing just that.. a monopoly on being right is not allowed even if u are.. he he

my mistake was trying to arrive at some "consensus" agreed "definitive" answers".. its not possible.. he he


Last edited by trog100; 03-11-2007 at 10:26 AM.
03-11-2007, 04:28 PM   #32
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Sorry.. but I don't know what there is to prove here?

Does the K10d JPEG have less edge sharpness than the Canon/Nikon, yes, but they have other problems of their own too (some in RAW as well as JPEG).. P.S. I would much prefer under sharpened edges to over sharpened edges, you can't undo the damage..

To many 'sock puppets' it is not a major issue, so we get bored of people ranting about it... I use RAW for a combination of reasons, but I do use JPEG too in some situations. As Phil himself said (after reporting this problem) if you are not printing over A3 you can't see the 'softness' anyway.. If you do make a heavy crop the texture detail is there and the edge sharpness is easily applied..

Of all the possible problems the camera could have, to me, and it seems many others, this is not a huge issue..

Last edited by joele; 03-11-2007 at 04:41 PM.
03-11-2007, 04:37 PM   #33
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Thank You..

QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
I don't mind at all Ben... in fact it's an honor and a privilege.

Although it couldn't be the first time they've heard this, and your suggestion is the easiest and most logical.
Who knows, like grains of sand on a scale, maybe the balance will finally tip... besides, that's a great reason for me to shut up and stop ranting, thank you.
It is your "ranting" that prompted me to send off the e-mail....
03-11-2007, 05:23 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote

P.S. I would much prefer under sharpened edges to over sharpened edges, you can't undo the damage..
Whose suggestion included that you can't turn it off? The suggestion was that the edge sharpening be user adjustable so you can turn it off completely if you intend to do post processing of jpg's.

The other camera brands don't shut it off, and that's their problem. Nikon never fully turns off their noise reduction, which is their problem.

The suggestion to Pentax that these adjustments be user defeatable is one of the most important parts of the suggestion.

Larry

03-11-2007, 05:30 PM   #35
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I think that was my suggestion.. IE that with other brands you can't turn it off.. and I would prefer it this way than that... Of course there is an ideal situation as well... I just don't think Pentax's "problem" is that huge a deal..

Suggestions are fine ;-) its just that these rants often go beyond suggestions, and into the land of obsession...
03-11-2007, 05:42 PM   #36
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i have a k100.. until the d40 arrived it was considered to be at the top end for 6 mega pixel jpegs.. so pentax have no problems there..

i never shoort raw i find it far too slow and cumbersome at present.. the future perhaps but not now..

the only problem i have with my current jpegs is being thought of as some kind of "happy snapper" because i dont shoot raw..

but if i had a k10 knowing they were not considered to be that good jpeg wise would bother me.. and from what i read (and see) they still are not that good whatever u do with them in camera.. and useing the pentax raw conversion software they are still not that good either..

from a sales point of view pentax are selling all they can make so it dosnt really matter to them.. but i am sure they will try a bit harder the next time.. they would be fools if they didnt..

the k10 is still a good camera with lots going for it.. jpegs issues or not.. but it would be a better camera without the jpeg issues.. to argue any differently is silly..

trog
03-11-2007, 05:56 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by trog100 Quote
the only problem i have with my current jpegs is being thought of as some kind of "happy snapper" because i dont shoot raw..
If your haappy who cares what 'they' think

QuoteQuote:
and useing the pentax raw conversion software they are still not that good either..
To me the RAW software in general is a bigger problem, it is WAY too slow to use.. They should just bundle Bibble Lite

QuoteQuote:
the k10 is still a good camera with lots going for it.. jpegs issues or not.. but it would be a better camera without the jpeg issues.. to argue any differently is silly..
Things can always be better
03-11-2007, 07:39 PM   #38
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"If your haappy who cares what 'they' think"

in real life i dont joele.. but in forum life it kinda matters.. he he he

and sadly i spend more time in bl-ody forums nowadays than i do with real life.. he he he

trog

03-11-2007, 08:05 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by trog100 Quote
and sadly i spend more time in bl-ody forums nowadays than i do with real life.. he he he
I know that feeling, I go in cycles with doing that..
03-11-2007, 09:47 PM   #40
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My question related to the whole sharpening issue is this. If I process my K100D files with Photolab using natural mode will it render edges as the K10d does? If this is the case then I like it. When I finish my images withmy usual steps in photoshop they look incredible. If not then I'll stay safely out of the debate.
03-11-2007, 10:05 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by arbutusq Quote
My question related to the whole sharpening issue is this. If I process my K100D files with Photolab using natural mode will it render edges as the K10d does? If this is the case then I like it. When I finish my images withmy usual steps in photoshop they look incredible. If not then I'll stay safely out of the debate.
Interesting question, as Phil said he tested processing RAW images from Photolab and they had the same 'soft edges' I will guess the answer to your question is 'yes'...

If not then it was certainly intentional on Pentax's part for the K10d images to look different..
03-11-2007, 10:36 PM   #42
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the other interesting question would be how does the samsung offering compare.. have they tweaked their jpeg output differently or are things exactly the same as the k10..

i would be interested to see some side by side comparisons purely out of curiosity.. the site linked to says it will soon be reviewing the samsung variant.. it should be interesting if they do..

trog
03-12-2007, 08:37 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
Sorry.. but I don't know what there is to prove here?
sock puppets' it is not a major issue, so we get bored of people ranting about it...
Sock-puppets are a major issue because they keep pretending the jpegs are as good as they can be, they're not and everyone seems to know that except Pentax... and I suspect most at Pentax know it too.

I have $2500 invested in my K10 system, and I have a right, and as a photographer, an obligation to express my satisfaction, and dissappointment, and make known ways by which my purchase could be improved...

that said, if the puppets would stop insisting that the default jpeg output is not a problem, I (and others) wouldn't need to keep insisting that it is.
03-12-2007, 09:34 AM   #44
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You do not have the right

QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
Sock-puppets are a major issue because they keep pretending the jpegs are as good as they can be, they're not and everyone seems to know that except Pentax... and I suspect most at Pentax know it too.

I have $2500 invested in my K10 system, and I have a right, and as a photographer, an obligation to express my satisfaction, and dissappointment, and make known ways by which my purchase could be improved...

that said, if the puppets would stop insisting that the default jpeg output is not a problem, I (and others) wouldn't need to keep insisting that it is.
to call anyone that disagrees with you a sock-puppet. Just because you dont like post processing and expect the JPEG engine to save you the trouble does not qualify you to judge what good JPEG output should look like on behalf of the rest of us.

I would never consider printing any image without post processing and the issue with the default JPEGs is not sharpness or saturation, if anything its the tone curve. All the other attributes I can easily fix in photoshop to the point where they actually look as good as RAW shots most of the time.

If you dont know how to do that then that does not make ME the idiot, does it?

If you want to post process a 8bit JPEG file the LAST thing you want is one thats already oversaturated and over-sharpened. I also like the fact that the Pentax reproduces texture detail particularly well.

If you want a bright mode that produces Canon like shots, fair enough, but leave normal tone for the rest of us if you dont mind and stop being so damn rude.
03-12-2007, 09:46 AM   #45
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*isteve, I'm not rude, you're rude... and a silly man too.

Besides, EVERY MAJOR REVIEWER AGREES... the default jpeg output is BELOW THE K10's CAPABILITY.

Until its fixed, I and everyone who agrees with everyone that has reviewed the camera will not stop complaining.

Native RAW has none of the problems that native jpegs do... the solution is simple, native RAW-like jpeg output as an option, so you and yours can enjoy your "smooth film-like" edges... and me and mine (forensics photographers), can enjoy (and employ) our clear edge sharpness.

Last edited by MJS; 03-12-2007 at 06:42 PM.
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