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03-12-2007, 10:20 AM   #46
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I thought the review was excellent, a good read

03-12-2007, 03:44 PM   #47
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Sticks and stones

QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
*isteve, I'm not rude, you're rude... and a silly man too.

Besides, EVERY MAJOR REVIEWER AGREES... the default jpeg output is BELOW THE K10's CAPABILITY

Until its fixed, I and everyone who agrees with everyone that has reviewed the camera will not stop complaining.

Native RAW has none of the problems that native jpegs do... the solution is simple, native RAW-like jpeg output as an option, so you and yours can enjoy your "smooth film-like" edges... and me and mine (forensics photographers), can enjoy (and employ) our clear edge sharpness.

PS... is that icon you, or a family photo?
OK lets understand this? You read all the reviews and then bought the camera even though it does not perform like you want?

There is a word for that, and genius is not it.

So having established that lets understand a few other things. Changing the sharpening in camera may not be a simple firmware fix, so good luck. Similar compaints about the *istD and DS were never addressed in firmware although many other issues were fixed. So I suggest you find some workarounds and stop wasting your time moaning about it, or buy another brand. I have found plenty of issues with the K10D which I have fed back to Pentax - some can be fixed in firmware and some cannot so I am far more interested in seeing how I can make the camera work for me as it is.

I have tried most other brands and guess what, they all have issues of some type or another.

I had the chance to test the camera before I bought it. I think I understood the intent of the engineers in most cases, and found workarounds where my preferences were different. I would NOT have bought the camera otherwise. There are a number of advantages to the default JPEG output that are seldom mentioned but that does not mean they dont exist. ACR output is noisier, has innaccurate colour and more artifacts, but if you like it thats fine. Jeff and Phil may prefer it too, but I dont. I get better results using PhotoLab and PS CS2. That does not make me or anyone else a sock-puppet.

A setting for high edge-sharpness would not be suitable for PP, but I'm quite happy if they include it on the next model as an option for other types of user, as long as they dont spoil what they already have.

I said that in my last post so there really is no need for high-school insults about my family tree, although I would rather be related to a gorilla than to some humans I know.
03-12-2007, 04:19 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
OK lets understand this? You read all the reviews and then bought the camera even though it does not perform like you want?
As I mentioned in my earlier posts, I was a very early adopter, the purchase was made before any review I know of except for ephotozine
03-12-2007, 06:33 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
they keep pretending the jpegs are as good as they can be, they're not and everyone seems to know that except Pentax... and I suspect most at Pentax know it too.

I have $2500 invested in my K10 system, and I have a right, [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
It seems the upshot is that this issue will probably be diverted on the already sold, and currently available K10D cameras because a replacement is already set in a few months before the end of this year as per the Pentax interview.

The K10D replacement will probably solve all the current issues, so if we want Vertical Pattern Noise, undershoot-sharpened jpg's, etc. solved, the suggestion will be to just buy the new K10D replacement in a few months.

03-12-2007, 06:38 PM   #50
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Guess thats the price you pay

QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
As I mentioned in my earlier posts, I was a very early adopter, the purchase was made before any review I know of except for ephotozine
But that does not mean there isnt a satisfactory workaround to your problem, depending on your intended usage. Unless you intend to use the images blown up to 100% on a computer screen the default sharpening parameters are largely irrelevant. The trouble with the kind of default parameters used by more consumer oriented cameras is that they really dont work well unless you simply plan to run a simple WEB conversion or stick the card in a printer dock or kiosk.

I guess JPEG is useful for your work - you probably take a lot of shots of a crime scene and dont want to post process hundreds at a time, right? But the level of sharpening you need really depends on what output you are planning for. A4 prints? Larger prints? On-screen views? Why not tell us?

What Jeff Keller did say (in contrast to Phil) was that changing image parameters in the camera make a big difference. Even Phil said you would only notice the difference in an A3 print or larger, so why is this such a problem? Bright mode, sharp +2, saturation -1, contrast 0 seems OK to me out of the camera if you really dont want to PP, but I like starting from Normal mode, sharp -3, saturation 0 contrast -1 and using photoshop instead. It works better but not unlss you look closely at a huge print.

If you decide to, you can create a photoshop action for the processing you want, you can simply batch all your photos up in bridge and run them through the same action. Its not really a big deal. The important fact is that the right sharpening processes produces excellent output even from JPEGs.

Because there are workarounds, I really cant understand the fuss. I would much rather they fixed some of the more annoying issues for which no workaround exists, such as noise patterns at high ISO (esp. with the grip) and the auto-ISO issues in P mode, but they are fixing a lot of issues with firware releases so I can live with it.

There again there are a few batch RAW converters, but the best dont officially support the K10D. I used to like RAW Shooter Pro for that, and Capture 1, but the former is now defunct and CS1 does not support the K10D yet. When it does, its worth a look. You may even decide RAW is easier than JPEG.
03-12-2007, 06:50 PM   #51
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Steve, I am off to work right now, but I wanted to apologize for the gorilla observation... my morning started off badly and I was spoiling for a fight... sorry about that.

With regard to print size, A3+ minimum... at times much bigger, big enough to be seen in detail from one end of a room to another. On paper the K10 is the perfect solution for my work... weather sealed, 10+MP, inexpensive, fantastic native RAW... it's just a constant irritant when I have to shoot to prove visual acuity in a given proximity, and print and signage is washy at the edges.
03-12-2007, 07:05 PM   #52
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Apology accepted

QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
Steve, I am off to work right now, but I wanted to apologize for the gorilla observation... my morning started off badly and I was spoiling for a fight... sorry about that.

With regard to print size, A3+ minimum... at times much bigger, big enough to be seen in detail from one end of a room to another. On paper the K10 is the perfect solution for my work... weather sealed, 10+MP, inexpensive, fantastic native RAW... it's just a constant irritant when I have to shoot to prove visual acuity in a given proximity, and print and signage is washy at the edges.
We all have bad days.

Can I ask whether

1. you would shoot RAW all the time if only there was an efficient way to processes hundred of images?

2. JPEGs are the only way to go because of storage constraints but if I could get decent edge acuity I would be happy with this?

Purely out of interest I would be happy to help experiment with various options to see if we cant come up with a satisfactory solution. It would be an important workaround for most users if you could find something that worked well enough for your professional needs. I recently did a few side-by-side ACR vs JPEG shots, PP added, and most folk guessed the wrong one when asked which was which because the JPEGs looked sharper.
03-12-2007, 09:18 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
The K10D replacement will probably solve all the current issues, so if we want Vertical Pattern Noise, undershoot-sharpened jpg's, etc. solved, the suggestion will be to just buy the new K10D replacement in a few months.
I'm sure with new model there will be a bunch of new sub pixel level issues to repeat after reviewers, to write to Pentax angry letters, vent "we want" demands on forums and to condemn nasty sock-puppets

03-12-2007, 09:34 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by klopus Quote
I'm sure with new model there will be a bunch of new sub pixel level issues to repeat after reviewers, to write to Pentax angry letters, vent "we want" demands on forums and to condemn nasty sock-puppets
There always seem to be...
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