Better to buy Pentax 77mm or 85mm* ???

Jeff · 05-16-2021, 04:42 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

By the way, I just noticed you are from Bucks. I played cricket at Stowe School (as a 16 year old) 40 years ago this month. What a magnificent Capability Brown park that was!

I must scan my negatives from that trip; I have a splendid shot of our team captain making an elegant leg glance toward the folly near the lake....

As a teacher I've been to Stowe for a day and agree with you about how beautiful it is. I had a wander around the grounds and would quite enjoy the chance to do so again, but this time with a camera and a couple of suitable lenses...a 31 and 77 for example! Were you at school there or were you part of a touring party?

I have also lived in Adelaide for a few months...

Perhaps our paths will cross somewhere!

Sandy Hancock · 05-16-2021, 05:16 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by Jeff

Were you at school there or were you part of a touring party?

I was fortunate to be a part of the first ever Australian school tour of England. We played in London (Westminster), Kent (Tonbridge, King's), Sussex (Lancing), Cambridgeshire (Leys), Derbyshire (Repton), Leicestershire (Uppingham), Lincolnshire (Stamford) and others I don't remember.

Beyond the cricket matches, we played golf in Tunbridge Wells, checked out Canterbury cathedral, took a day trip to Calais on the Channel hovercraft, visited the Shambles in York, the beach resorts in Brighton and the Viking archeology in Sutton Hoo. Oh yeah - we also had an unusually unrestricted tour of Windsor Castle on you own home patch....

And with a week at Westminster, we had total access to the Abbey after hours. Subsequent visits under tourist restrictions have made me appreciate how remarkable that was. Seeing the coronation chair behind glass decades later (it was in St Edward's chapel back then, when we could have sat on it if we wanted to, and did indeed read the centuries of student graffiti inscribed on it) was rather sad.

All in all, it was a formative trip. I have been back twice in more recent years and felt immediately at home.

hadi · 05-17-2021, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

I don't have access to a dedicated studio any more, so when I need shoot portraits I am setting up lights and a backdrop in my living room, which is an ell shaped room approximately 23 feet x 11 feet on each leg. The only problem I have is that I can't dial my lights back enough to get above f/5.6, and so have to put a neutral density filter on to use wider apertures.
It gives me ample room for a half length portrait with the 85mm. This one of the granddaughter was shot fairly tight, but I had ample room to back up.

tight headshot or not, that is a great portrait!

Andrea K · 05-17-2021, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To the OP:

I'm not going to get into the rendering, the Pixel Dust and all the other esoteric junk used to describe the fact that the 77 isn't an especially well corrected lens.

The great equalizer in all things optical is F8, and the closer you get to that point, the less there is to differentiate between lenses, and this includes comparisons between the 77 and the big 85. I did some ad hoc comparisons of the two lenses a while back. The DFA* 85 is excellent at all apertures, seeming to be at it's best around f/5.6. The 77 is really not a great lens wide open in that in some situations it is going to give disappointing results, but by f/2.8 it is very good indeed, and by f/5.6 there isn't much to say between it and the 85mm lens.
I like that I can use the 85 at f/1.4 and get superb results, but I do generally find myself stopped down a few stops to secure depth of field.

What is the unit of measure of that?

Wheatfield · 05-17-2021, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Andrea K

What is the unit of measure of that?

I'm not understanding what you are asking.

**mikesbike** · 05-17-2021, 03:57 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Prohibitiory

I'm surprised how small it is!!!

Ha ha! Yes, this is what I love about it, in addition to having high quality of build and imaging. The design is great, and I love the neat pul-out built in hood. Its great for getting about, and adding reach and low light capability to the DA 20-40mm Ltd. It was a favorite for film and has become so with APS-C digital as well.

Its MF feel and handing is very good, but because of its small size, and like other LTD's not of internal focus type, the focusing collar continues to rotate during AF- so you must remember to keep your fingers well back on this small lens body during AF!!

My copy is fine wide open, and as usual even sharper when stopped down a bit. As to portraits, for me, sharp is fine to a point, but razor sharpness is not a critical issue. See page 4, post #57 of this thread for a fine example of what the FA 77 can do. According to the OpticaLimits test report, the FA 77 wide open delivers "very good" sharpness wide open centrally in the frame with edges just fair- which is fine for most tele images. Then the edges gradually improve so by f/4 you get overall outstanding results. I like it for some garden closeups too.

Have fun and please share your experiences.

Andrea K · 05-18-2021, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

I'm not understanding what you are asking.

In your post you have used these words: excellent, best around, not great, very good .What is the unit of measure?

**Rondec** · 05-18-2021, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by mikesbike

Ha ha! Yes, this is what I love about it, in addition to having high quality of build and imaging. The design is great, and I love the neat pul-out built in hood. Its great for getting about, and adding reach and low light capability to the DA 20-40mm Ltd. It was a favorite for film and has become so with APS-C digital as well.

Its MF feel and handing is very good, but because of its small size, and like other LTD's not of internal focus type, the focusing collar continues to rotate during AF- so you must remember to keep your fingers well back on this small lens body during AF!!

My copy is fine wide open, and as usual even sharper when stopped down a bit. As to portraits, for me, sharp is fine to a point, but razor sharpness is not a critical issue. See page 4, post #57 of this thread for a fine example of what the FA 77 can do. According to the OpticaLimits test report, the FA 77 wide open delivers "very good" sharpness wide open centrally in the frame with edges just fair- which is fine for most tele images. Then the edges gradually improve so by f/4 you get overall outstanding results. I like it for some garden closeups too.

Have fun and please share your experiences.

I think the thing to remember is that Optical Limits tested the FA 77 on a K10. So on an APS-C sensor it didn't get good border sharpness till f5.6. Certainly wouldn't do as well on a higher resolution full frame sensor.

I think it is a nice lens for portraiture as some vignetting and border softness is not an issue, but it certainly benefits a lot from stopping down.

Jeff · 05-18-2021, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I think the thing to remember is that Optical Limits tested the FA 77 on a K10. So on an APS-C sensor it didn't get good border sharpness till f5.6. Certainly wouldn't do as well on a higher resolution full frame sensor.

I think it is a nice lens for portraiture as some vignetting and border softness is not an issue, but it certainly benefits a lot from stopping down.

But will things have improved with the new coatings, or is the 77 always going to need some stopping down for sharpness?

I ask because I am looking at getting one soon, or should I not bother and just get an SMC coated lens? Will the new coatings actually make much difference?

**Rondec** · 05-18-2021, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by Jeff

But will things have improved with the new coatings, or is the 77 always going to need some stopping down for sharpness?

I ask because I am looking at getting one soon, or should I not bother and just get an SMC coated lens? Will the new coatings actually make much difference?

New coatings will not affect sharpness in most situations. They help light transmission and decrease flare. That's probably about it.

Wheatfield · 05-18-2021, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Andrea K

In your post you have used these words: excellent, best around, not great, very good .What is the unit of measure?

My eyes.

bdery · 05-18-2021, 05:59 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Prohibitiory

I know 85mm is neewer, brighter but.. is it really that far off from 77mm?

Have you seen the 85mm's in-depth review? There's a page specifically comparing with the 77, I think it will answer your questions:

HD Pentax-D FA* 85mm F1.4 ED SDM AW Review - Introduction | PentaxForums.com Reviews

hadi · 05-18-2021, 06:11 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by bdery

Have you seen the 85mm's in-depth review? There's a page specifically comparing with the 77, I think it will answer your questions:

HD Pentax-D FA* 85mm F1.4 ED SDM AW Review - Introduction | PentaxForums.com Reviews

yup, that is in line with my thoughts of the two lenses.

Prohibitiory · 05-18-2021, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by bdery

Have you seen the 85mm's in-depth review? There's a page specifically comparing with the 77, I think it will answer your questions:

HD Pentax-D FA* 85mm F1.4 ED SDM AW Review - Introduction | PentaxForums.com Reviews

Thank you!

Andrea K · 05-18-2021, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

My eyes.

Ehm... I mean things like resolution, contrast, color fidelity, bokeh, 3D effect, details in the shadows, etc...

05-16-2021, 05:16 AM - 3 Likes	#107
Sandy Hancock Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,272	Originally posted by Jeff Were you at school there or were you part of a touring party? I was fortunate to be a part of the first ever Australian school tour of England. We played in London (Westminster), Kent (Tonbridge, King's), Sussex (Lancing), Cambridgeshire (Leys), Derbyshire (Repton), Leicestershire (Uppingham), Lincolnshire (Stamford) and others I don't remember. Beyond the cricket matches, we played golf in Tunbridge Wells, checked out Canterbury cathedral, took a day trip to Calais on the Channel hovercraft, visited the Shambles in York, the beach resorts in Brighton and the Viking archeology in Sutton Hoo. Oh yeah - we also had an unusually unrestricted tour of Windsor Castle on you own home patch.... And with a week at Westminster, we had total access to the Abbey after hours. Subsequent visits under tourist restrictions have made me appreciate how remarkable that was. Seeing the coronation chair behind glass decades later (it was in St Edward's chapel back then, when we could have sat on it if we wanted to, and did indeed read the centuries of student graffiti inscribed on it) was rather sad. All in all, it was a formative trip. I have been back twice in more recent years and felt immediately at home. Last edited by Sandy Hancock; 05-16-2021 at 05:21 AM.

05-17-2021, 03:57 PM - 2 Likes	#111
mikesbike Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Southeastern Michigan Posts: 4,549	Originally posted by Prohibitiory I'm surprised how small it is!!! Ha ha! Yes, this is what I love about it, in addition to having high quality of build and imaging. The design is great, and I love the neat pul-out built in hood. Its great for getting about, and adding reach and low light capability to the DA 20-40mm Ltd. It was a favorite for film and has become so with APS-C digital as well. Its MF feel and handing is very good, but because of its small size, and like other LTD's not of internal focus type, the focusing collar continues to rotate during AF- so you must remember to keep your fingers well back on this small lens body during AF!! My copy is fine wide open, and as usual even sharper when stopped down a bit. As to portraits, for me, sharp is fine to a point, but razor sharpness is not a critical issue. See page 4, post #57 of this thread for a fine example of what the FA 77 can do. According to the OpticaLimits test report, the FA 77 wide open delivers "very good" sharpness wide open centrally in the frame with edges just fair- which is fine for most tele images. Then the edges gradually improve so by f/4 you get overall outstanding results. I like it for some garden closeups too. Have fun and please share your experiences. Last edited by mikesbike; 05-17-2021 at 04:02 PM.

05-18-2021, 03:14 AM	#114
Jeff Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Berkshire, England Posts: 837	Originally posted by Rondec I think the thing to remember is that Optical Limits tested the FA 77 on a K10. So on an APS-C sensor it didn't get good border sharpness till f5.6. Certainly wouldn't do as well on a higher resolution full frame sensor. I think it is a nice lens for portraiture as some vignetting and border softness is not an issue, but it certainly benefits a lot from stopping down. But will things have improved with the new coatings, or is the 77 always going to need some stopping down for sharpness? I ask because I am looking at getting one soon, or should I not bother and just get an SMC coated lens? Will the new coatings actually make much difference? Last edited by Jeff; 05-18-2021 at 03:16 AM. Reason: grammar

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05-16-2021, 04:42 AM - 1 Like	#106
Jeff Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Berkshire, England Posts: 837	Originally posted by Sandy Hancock By the way, I just noticed you are from Bucks. I played cricket at Stowe School (as a 16 year old) 40 years ago this month. What a magnificent Capability Brown park that was! I must scan my negatives from that trip; I have a splendid shot of our team captain making an elegant leg glance toward the folly near the lake.... As a teacher I've been to Stowe for a day and agree with you about how beautiful it is. I had a wander around the grounds and would quite enjoy the chance to do so again, but this time with a camera and a couple of suitable lenses...a 31 and 77 for example! Were you at school there or were you part of a touring party? I have also lived in Adelaide for a few months... Perhaps our paths will cross somewhere!

05-17-2021, 05:53 AM	#108
hadi Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Mississauga, Ontario Posts: 563	Originally posted by Wheatfield I don't have access to a dedicated studio any more, so when I need shoot portraits I am setting up lights and a backdrop in my living room, which is an ell shaped room approximately 23 feet x 11 feet on each leg. The only problem I have is that I can't dial my lights back enough to get above f/5.6, and so have to put a neutral density filter on to use wider apertures. It gives me ample room for a half length portrait with the 85mm. This one of the granddaughter was shot fairly tight, but I had ample room to back up. tight headshot or not, that is a great portrait!

05-17-2021, 06:40 AM	#109
Andrea K Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Rome, Italy Posts: 822	Originally posted by Wheatfield ^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ To the OP: I'm not going to get into the rendering, the Pixel Dust and all the other esoteric junk used to describe the fact that the 77 isn't an especially well corrected lens. The great equalizer in all things optical is F8, and the closer you get to that point, the less there is to differentiate between lenses, and this includes comparisons between the 77 and the big 85. I did some ad hoc comparisons of the two lenses a while back. The DFA* 85 is excellent at all apertures, seeming to be at it's best around f/5.6. The 77 is really not a great lens wide open in that in some situations it is going to give disappointing results, but by f/2.8 it is very good indeed, and by f/5.6 there isn't much to say between it and the 85mm lens. I like that I can use the 85 at f/1.4 and get superb results, but I do generally find myself stopped down a few stops to secure depth of field. What is the unit of measure of that?

05-17-2021, 01:22 PM	#110
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by Andrea K What is the unit of measure of that? I'm not understanding what you are asking.

05-18-2021, 01:33 AM	#112
Andrea K Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Rome, Italy Posts: 822	Originally posted by Wheatfield I'm not understanding what you are asking. In your post you have used these words: excellent, best around, not great, very good .What is the unit of measure?

05-18-2021, 02:31 AM	#113
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by mikesbike Ha ha! Yes, this is what I love about it, in addition to having high quality of build and imaging. The design is great, and I love the neat pul-out built in hood. Its great for getting about, and adding reach and low light capability to the DA 20-40mm Ltd. It was a favorite for film and has become so with APS-C digital as well. Its MF feel and handing is very good, but because of its small size, and like other LTD's not of internal focus type, the focusing collar continues to rotate during AF- so you must remember to keep your fingers well back on this small lens body during AF!! My copy is fine wide open, and as usual even sharper when stopped down a bit. As to portraits, for me, sharp is fine to a point, but razor sharpness is not a critical issue. See page 4, post #57 of this thread for a fine example of what the FA 77 can do. According to the OpticaLimits test report, the FA 77 wide open delivers "very good" sharpness wide open centrally in the frame with edges just fair- which is fine for most tele images. Then the edges gradually improve so by f/4 you get overall outstanding results. I like it for some garden closeups too. Have fun and please share your experiences. I think the thing to remember is that Optical Limits tested the FA 77 on a K10. So on an APS-C sensor it didn't get good border sharpness till f5.6. Certainly wouldn't do as well on a higher resolution full frame sensor. I think it is a nice lens for portraiture as some vignetting and border softness is not an issue, but it certainly benefits a lot from stopping down.

05-18-2021, 03:18 AM	#115
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by Jeff But will things have improved with the new coatings, or is the 77 always going to need some stopping down for sharpness? I ask because I am looking at getting one soon, or should I not bother and just get an SMC coated lens? Will the new coatings actually make much difference? New coatings will not affect sharpness in most situations. They help light transmission and decrease flare. That's probably about it.

05-18-2021, 05:42 AM	#116
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by Andrea K In your post you have used these words: excellent, best around, not great, very good .What is the unit of measure? My eyes.

05-18-2021, 05:59 AM - 1 Like	#117
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Originally posted by Prohibitiory I know 85mm is neewer, brighter but.. is it really that far off from 77mm? Have you seen the 85mm's in-depth review? There's a page specifically comparing with the 77, I think it will answer your questions: HD Pentax-D FA* 85mm F1.4 ED SDM AW Review - Introduction \| PentaxForums.com Reviews

05-18-2021, 06:11 AM - 1 Like	#118
hadi Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Mississauga, Ontario Posts: 563	Originally posted by bdery Have you seen the 85mm's in-depth review? There's a page specifically comparing with the 77, I think it will answer your questions: HD Pentax-D FA* 85mm F1.4 ED SDM AW Review - Introduction \| PentaxForums.com Reviews yup, that is in line with my thoughts of the two lenses.

05-18-2021, 07:12 AM	#119
Prohibitiory Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: Buckinghamshire, UK Posts: 471 Original Poster	Originally posted by bdery Have you seen the 85mm's in-depth review? There's a page specifically comparing with the 77, I think it will answer your questions: HD Pentax-D FA* 85mm F1.4 ED SDM AW Review - Introduction \| PentaxForums.com Reviews Thank you!

05-18-2021, 07:14 AM	#120
Andrea K Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Rome, Italy Posts: 822	Originally posted by Wheatfield My eyes. Ehm... I mean things like resolution, contrast, color fidelity, bokeh, 3D effect, details in the shadows, etc...