I'm going crazy!!!

mchud · 11-28-2008, 02:16 PM

Is it just me? Please tell me! I have the k20d and ist. I can pick up the ist and get a great sharp clear picture hand held, no flash. Same everything with the k20d and it's soft or blurred. Has anyone else had this problem? Is it not possible to just pick up the k20d and take a good picture? Is there a major learning curve or some settings I need to change that I don't know about? I am just about at my end here and ready to return it, but there are so many people who love it and I just hate this camera. Please help me understand!

**Mallee Boy** · 11-28-2008, 03:07 PM

Please post some shots. Can not help you without seeing the problem.

**Sailor** · 11-28-2008, 03:35 PM

Rather than spending a bunch of time and angst analyzing the problem, perhaps you should exchange the camera for a second example. If the exchange performs to your satisfaction, then - problem solved. If not, you may - indeed - be missing something.

Jer

Marc Sabatella · 11-29-2008, 08:25 AM

You have received some great replies to your questions on the other threads you've started, all giving ideas for things that could be going wrong. But they're just guesses until you post some actual pictures here - preferably ones taken side by side using the same settings on both cameras.

mchud · 11-29-2008, 12:40 PM

Okay, here are some pictures. I ran to the Costco and grabbed a Nikon just to test the differences. I took pictures with all 3. Here is the info:

Nikon d60 (10 pix)
Ist DS (6 pix)
K20d (14 pix)

All using 1/30, 5.6 50mm

The Nikon had a Nikkor lesn, Pentax cameras used Sigma or Tamron

Tell me the order that you think they are as far as which one is best to worst and why. Like coloring, sharpness etc. Then I'll tell you which is which. A little "blind" test so to speak.

I shrunk the pics to the required upload size and then sharpened them. I don't know if you'll get the detail you need to see.

Most were handheld. I did it purposely on a low shutter speed to see what I could get away with handheld. The last 2 were tripod.

slomojoe · 11-29-2008, 01:02 PM

Well, obviously the first pics in the top two panels and the bottom one in the vertical panel have a very yellow cast, and the right ones in the top two panels, and center in the vertical, the most "natural" looking one . This is likely due to the white balance setting used, or to differences in the AWB, which may vary sharply between cameras, especially under artificial light.

Sharpness-wise it is impossible to tell from these pictures, they look more or less equivalent to me (with perhaps the center one being a tad softer), but with the extreme resizing you used it's basically pointless (plus, some of the resizing parameters were not consistent, unless the subject has gained/lost weight and the lens changed dimensions betweem pics)

mchud · 11-29-2008, 01:05 PM

Well, from what I understand, I can't make them much bigger than that can I? Well, I suppose I could do each on separtely. And believe it or not, eventhough they were all at 50mm, they were a little off from eachother. one was a little closer and one a little further. I will try and add them individually a little later today if I get the chance. Thanks.

Marc Sabatella · 11-29-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by mchud

Well, from what I understand, I can't make them much bigger than that can I?

Of course you can. You can resize them any old way you like, but better than resizing would be to post 100% crops. Crop out the center portion of the images - say, 600 pixels square - and post those *without* resizing. That way we can see
what the image really looks like. And fun as it may be to withhold the details and tell us lter, leaving the EXIF info intact is important so we can look and see the settings you were using, which could possibly explain any differences.

bobloadmire · 11-29-2008, 04:43 PM

yeah you need 100% zoom crops

Falcons · 11-29-2008, 05:07 PM

Sorry I don't get this. First you were saying it is impossible for you to get a sharp clear picture with a K20D, but you can achieve it with your *ist series Pentax.

Now however you have turned it into a Nikon vs Pentax test with 3 photos that look fairly similar as far as sharpness and composition goes - but a little different in how WB was handled.

According to your opening post you claimed you couldn't obtain a sharp clear picture with your K20D. So what happened here? We should be able to pick the soft blurry pic from the 2 sharp pics, perhaps others see it differently but I can't see much difference in sharpness between the 3 pics.

I would also ask the question of why multiple threads of the same issue about the K20D?

**Mallee Boy** · 11-29-2008, 05:16 PM

OK, I will play.

No 1: K20D. Sharpest shot of the lot with the most detail but white balance is out of whack. Easily adjusted either in camera or post processing. Check settings in camera first.

No 2: *ist. Least sharp of the three and has that slightly yellow cast that my DS produced in some situations, which is also variable due to the lens fitted. Again a white balance issue.

No 3: Nikon D60. White balance correct but only marginally sharper than the *ist.

Peter Zack · 11-29-2008, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Falcons

Sorry I don't get this. First you were saying it is impossible for you to get a sharp clear picture with a K20D, but you can achieve it with your *ist series Pentax.

Now however you have turned it into a Nikon vs Pentax test with 3 photos that look fairly similar as far as sharpness and composition goes - but a little different in how WB was handled.

According to your opening post you claimed you couldn't obtain a sharp clear picture with your K20D. So what happened here? We should be able to pick the soft blurry pic from the 2 sharp pics, perhaps others see it differently but I can't see much difference in sharpness between the 3 pics.

I would also ask the question of why multiple threads of the same issue about the K20D?

My thoughts as well.

mchud · 11-29-2008, 06:43 PM

Well, I'm not trying to turn it into a Nikon vs Pentax contest. That was merely for me, but when I was asked to post some pics, those are what I had. I'm not comparing wb, I didn't want to change any of that to alter the picture. I'm feeling a little embarrased by some of the comments. I'm not trying to be difficult. I appreciate all those who take the time to try and help me. The reason for multiple posts is because they get pushed down so far and I don't know if anyone will see it, so I post again. I think they've been a little different in question, but similar. I guess I"m not exactly familiar with how the site works. Do you get notified somehow if someone posts after you? Sorry. Anyway, I don't understand how to crop it in and leave it unsized. It says it has to be no bigger than 800 pixels tall, so is there a different way? Thanks and sorry to those I've bothered, I'm just trying to get this camera because I really want to love it. Just FYI for those who care, the sharpest consistently was my ist d. I love that camera!\

Mallee Boy- thanks for not making me feel like a complete idiot. I'm getting the feeling there are some people who are a little edgy. But I could be wrong. That's the problem with text!

Peter Zack · 11-29-2008, 07:19 PM

I'm not edgy and hope I didn't come across that way. You can set your site notification to subscribe when someone posts to your thread and then you get an email automatically when there's a response. That's how I knew you posted again.

So The best way for us to see the image quality is pick 3 similar images. A still life is best (like the lamp above) and crop it 100% as described above. Then post them here. We don't need more than 3 of the same.

I have one question. Was the camera on a tripod or some other stable support and if so do you have SR on or off? Since the *ist does not have SR, it will come out sharper when on a tripod against a K10/20D with SR on. SR will actually make an image soft when the camera is on a tripod.

For test shots I would strongly suggest natural light and a tripod. So maybe tomorrow set things up on in a bright room with higher shutter speeds and see what you get.

Marc Sabatella · 11-29-2008, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by mchud

Anyway, I don't understand how to crop it in and leave it unsized.

That would depend on the software oyu are using to do the cropping. But with most, you wou;ld have to take some exta action to resize it. Simply cropping would do the trick.

Quote:

It says it has to be no bigger than 800 pixels tall, so is there a different way?

I'm not sure what "it" refers to here. I'm uessing you are tyring to use the forum's own "attachment" feature, but I've never tried that. I usually post images to my flickr, photobucket, or zenfolio sites, then simply post a link here.

Quote:

Just FYI for those who care, the sharpest consistently was my ist d. I love that camera!

So I take it that was picture #1 in the posted samples? It certainly likely, as the WB was off by the most. Anyhow, the pictures were really too small to say anything about sharpness. But don't worry about going back to the store. No one really cares about the Nikon comparison - just post some pictures from the K20D you've been unhappy with.

11-29-2008, 12:40 PM	#5
mchud Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 42 Original Poster	Okay, here are some pictures. I ran to the Costco and grabbed a Nikon just to test the differences. I took pictures with all 3. Here is the info: Nikon d60 (10 pix) Ist DS (6 pix) K20d (14 pix) All using 1/30, 5.6 50mm The Nikon had a Nikkor lesn, Pentax cameras used Sigma or Tamron Tell me the order that you think they are as far as which one is best to worst and why. Like coloring, sharpness etc. Then I'll tell you which is which. A little "blind" test so to speak. I shrunk the pics to the required upload size and then sharpened them. I don't know if you'll get the detail you need to see. Most were handheld. I did it purposely on a low shutter speed to see what I could get away with handheld. The last 2 were tripod. Attached Images

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11-28-2008, 02:16 PM	#1
mchud Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 42	I'm going crazy!!! Is it just me? Please tell me! I have the k20d and ist. I can pick up the ist and get a great sharp clear picture hand held, no flash. Same everything with the k20d and it's soft or blurred. Has anyone else had this problem? Is it not possible to just pick up the k20d and take a good picture? Is there a major learning curve or some settings I need to change that I don't know about? I am just about at my end here and ready to return it, but there are so many people who love it and I just hate this camera. Please help me understand!

11-28-2008, 03:07 PM	#2
Mallee Boy Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,904	Please post some shots. Can not help you without seeing the problem.

11-28-2008, 03:35 PM	#3
Sailor Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Coastal Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 26,205	Rather than spending a bunch of time and angst analyzing the problem, perhaps you should exchange the camera for a second example. If the exchange performs to your satisfaction, then - problem solved. If not, you may - indeed - be missing something. Jer

11-29-2008, 08:25 AM	#4
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	You have received some great replies to your questions on the other threads you've started, all giving ideas for things that could be going wrong. But they're just guesses until you post some actual pictures here - preferably ones taken side by side using the same settings on both cameras.

11-29-2008, 01:02 PM	#6
slomojoe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 788	Well, obviously the first pics in the top two panels and the bottom one in the vertical panel have a very yellow cast, and the right ones in the top two panels, and center in the vertical, the most "natural" looking one . This is likely due to the white balance setting used, or to differences in the AWB, which may vary sharply between cameras, especially under artificial light. Sharpness-wise it is impossible to tell from these pictures, they look more or less equivalent to me (with perhaps the center one being a tad softer), but with the extreme resizing you used it's basically pointless (plus, some of the resizing parameters were not consistent, unless the subject has gained/lost weight and the lens changed dimensions betweem pics)

11-29-2008, 01:05 PM	#7
mchud Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 42 Original Poster	Well, from what I understand, I can't make them much bigger than that can I? Well, I suppose I could do each on separtely. And believe it or not, eventhough they were all at 50mm, they were a little off from eachother. one was a little closer and one a little further. I will try and add them individually a little later today if I get the chance. Thanks.

11-29-2008, 01:37 PM	#8
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Originally posted by mchud Well, from what I understand, I can't make them much bigger than that can I? Of course you can. You can resize them any old way you like, but better than resizing would be to post 100% crops. Crop out the center portion of the images - say, 600 pixels square - and post those without resizing. That way we can see what the image really looks like. And fun as it may be to withhold the details and tell us lter, leaving the EXIF info intact is important so we can look and see the settings you were using, which could possibly explain any differences.

11-29-2008, 04:43 PM	#9
bobloadmire Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 50	yeah you need 100% zoom crops

11-29-2008, 05:07 PM	#10
Falcons Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Perth Photos: Gallery Posts: 669	Sorry I don't get this. First you were saying it is impossible for you to get a sharp clear picture with a K20D, but you can achieve it with your *ist series Pentax. Now however you have turned it into a Nikon vs Pentax test with 3 photos that look fairly similar as far as sharpness and composition goes - but a little different in how WB was handled. According to your opening post you claimed you couldn't obtain a sharp clear picture with your K20D. So what happened here? We should be able to pick the soft blurry pic from the 2 sharp pics, perhaps others see it differently but I can't see much difference in sharpness between the 3 pics. I would also ask the question of why multiple threads of the same issue about the K20D?

11-29-2008, 05:16 PM	#11
Mallee Boy Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,904	OK, I will play. No 1: K20D. Sharpest shot of the lot with the most detail but white balance is out of whack. Easily adjusted either in camera or post processing. Check settings in camera first. No 2: ist. Least sharp of the three and has that slightly yellow cast that my DS produced in some situations, which is also variable due to the lens fitted. Again a white balance issue. No 3: Nikon D60. White balance correct but only marginally sharper than the ist.

11-29-2008, 06:02 PM	#12
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	Originally posted by Falcons Sorry I don't get this. First you were saying it is impossible for you to get a sharp clear picture with a K20D, but you can achieve it with your *ist series Pentax. Now however you have turned it into a Nikon vs Pentax test with 3 photos that look fairly similar as far as sharpness and composition goes - but a little different in how WB was handled. According to your opening post you claimed you couldn't obtain a sharp clear picture with your K20D. So what happened here? We should be able to pick the soft blurry pic from the 2 sharp pics, perhaps others see it differently but I can't see much difference in sharpness between the 3 pics. I would also ask the question of why multiple threads of the same issue about the K20D? My thoughts as well.

11-29-2008, 06:43 PM	#13
mchud Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 42 Original Poster	Well, I'm not trying to turn it into a Nikon vs Pentax contest. That was merely for me, but when I was asked to post some pics, those are what I had. I'm not comparing wb, I didn't want to change any of that to alter the picture. I'm feeling a little embarrased by some of the comments. I'm not trying to be difficult. I appreciate all those who take the time to try and help me. The reason for multiple posts is because they get pushed down so far and I don't know if anyone will see it, so I post again. I think they've been a little different in question, but similar. I guess I"m not exactly familiar with how the site works. Do you get notified somehow if someone posts after you? Sorry. Anyway, I don't understand how to crop it in and leave it unsized. It says it has to be no bigger than 800 pixels tall, so is there a different way? Thanks and sorry to those I've bothered, I'm just trying to get this camera because I really want to love it. Just FYI for those who care, the sharpest consistently was my ist d. I love that camera!\ Mallee Boy- thanks for not making me feel like a complete idiot. I'm getting the feeling there are some people who are a little edgy. But I could be wrong. That's the problem with text!

11-29-2008, 07:19 PM	#14
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	I'm not edgy and hope I didn't come across that way. You can set your site notification to subscribe when someone posts to your thread and then you get an email automatically when there's a response. That's how I knew you posted again. So The best way for us to see the image quality is pick 3 similar images. A still life is best (like the lamp above) and crop it 100% as described above. Then post them here. We don't need more than 3 of the same. I have one question. Was the camera on a tripod or some other stable support and if so do you have SR on or off? Since the *ist does not have SR, it will come out sharper when on a tripod against a K10/20D with SR on. SR will actually make an image soft when the camera is on a tripod. For test shots I would strongly suggest natural light and a tripod. So maybe tomorrow set things up on in a bright room with higher shutter speeds and see what you get.

11-29-2008, 08:53 PM	#15
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Originally posted by mchud Anyway, I don't understand how to crop it in and leave it unsized. That would depend on the software oyu are using to do the cropping. But with most, you wou;ld have to take some exta action to resize it. Simply cropping would do the trick. Quote: It says it has to be no bigger than 800 pixels tall, so is there a different way? I'm not sure what "it" refers to here. I'm uessing you are tyring to use the forum's own "attachment" feature, but I've never tried that. I usually post images to my flickr, photobucket, or zenfolio sites, then simply post a link here. Quote: Just FYI for those who care, the sharpest consistently was my ist d. I love that camera! So I take it that was picture #1 in the posted samples? It certainly likely, as the WB was off by the most. Anyhow, the pictures were really too small to say anything about sharpness. But don't worry about going back to the store. No one really cares about the Nikon comparison - just post some pictures from the K20D you've been unhappy with.