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07-15-2021, 01:52 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
You are over reacting.

When something is introduced into the operating theater it has to be as sterile as possible. A camera or phone is no different than a person.

When my son was born by C-section, I was allowed into the operating theater - mostly to give my wife support. I had to put on scrubs, booties, mask, gloves and hairnet. My glasses were disinfected and I had to scrub my hands for a full 5 minutes before getting gloves on and entering the room. My wife was awake during the procedure as I held her hand. When the nurse handed me my son to show to his mother, while stitching her up, I am sure my son looked up at that blue blob and wondered if his father was a Smurf.

This was during the film days. After the birth and when my wife was back in her room to sleep off the meds, my son was under a heat lamp and there I was with my camera. I got within a few feet and shot with a 55mm f1.8 wide open. Before shooting the nurse told me it was OK to take pictures of MY son but flash was not allowed in the nursery - ever.

The no camera's in the theater or nursery is not a draconian system to deny malpractice claims. Operating theaters are not public spaces and the rules of the room outweigh the desire for "documentation". As for the patient being "in control", in the Operating theater, the patient is usually under anesthetic and is unaware of what is going on. There are also legal papers signed outlining restrictions and liabilities before entering - I know - I've signed them.
Bingo. This isn't our first c-section either. Thankfully most hospitals around here are open to births being photographed, even in the OR. While fear of gaining malpractice evidence may pay a part in some denying cameras, it's not the only reason. There is the risk of a photographer getting in the way of the staff, trying to get their shot. You'd think they would know to stay out of the way, and most do, but I know a lot of photographers can get into the mindset that they are the center of the universe and everyone else should conform to their wishes to get the shot.

Births can also go from joyous to OH CRAP in a literal heartbeat, where the staff have to act quickly. So it's also understandable if the staff only want essential people during that time so they aren't tripping over anyone extra. In the OR's I've seen, if something goes sideways, there are very few places someone could stand and not risk being at least partially in the way.

Thankfully it sounds like that shouldn't be an issue here, so that debate is more academic than pertinent to our specific situation.

07-15-2021, 02:53 PM - 2 Likes   #17
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Hi
Love all the comments. Now let us get to some facts. I am a retired OR nurse and very familiar with the environments and limits it imposes on photography. The first thing is that the people in the OR are there for the care of the patient. That is their primary duty, not photography. Any event in the OR, delivery, or procedure carries inherent risks that the staff have to address and not be distracted. A simple P&S is the best camera to select. The staff are not photographers and are not there for your Kodak moment needs. As for why nonmedical people are not allowed in the OR is obvious. You could contaminate a sterile field. The staff does not have the resources to babysit you. They are there for the Patient, not you. The OR is not a public space and any one of the staff may not want to have their photo taken and it is their right to not be photographed in a private space. The best picture is after the delivery with the baby on the mother's abdomen. The OR is not a reality show for TV. So think about what is the best and safest way for your wife and baby during this procedure. The people in the room may or may not have time or place to use any camera and stay focused on the welfare and safety of your wife and baby.
07-15-2021, 03:24 PM - 1 Like   #18
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It is interesting to read the experience of those who have been in the OR. In Germany, I don’t remember things being so stringent.
07-15-2021, 04:15 PM   #19
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Bear in mind the restrictions I was talking about apply to non-operating room as well - the local hospitals banned video of the birth experience at least between the time my two kids were born (about 18 years ago). There was no sterile environment involved.

07-15-2021, 05:25 PM - 2 Likes   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlhawes Quote
... Most of the legal principles I'm aware of say the patient is in charge - he's the employer, after all. ...
And, as is so often the case, I learn, again, that the law sometimes is an ass.

The patient is no more "in charge" than the linoleum. The surgeon is in charge and will soon tell you what you can and can't do in his/her theatre. The next person I would listen to would be the senior OR nurse.
I've been in enough operating theatres (either as an observer, designer or a patient) to know who's in charge and it's never the patient!

Last edited by MarkJerling; 07-15-2021 at 06:41 PM.
07-15-2021, 06:05 PM - 1 Like   #21
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Here in Singapore, we are not allowed to take photos of the nurses/midwife and doctor.
We are also not allowed to take photos of procedures.
What can be taken will be when the baby is coming out as well as after the baby is out. (clean up, measurements, etc - ok )
Of course, baby with mom photos are ok too.
07-16-2021, 05:56 PM - 2 Likes   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
I learn, again, that the law sometimes is an ass.
Although this is true- there have been and still are many restrictive bad laws, and it takes many years of wrangling through the courts to get them overturned and be free from them, you can relax when it comes to this.

---------- Post added 07-16-21 at 06:06 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
The patient is no more "in charge" than the linoleum. The surgeon is in charge and will soon tell you what you can and can't do in his/her theatre. The next person I would listen to would be the senior OR nurse.
I've been in enough operating theatres (either as an observer, designer or a patient) to know who's in charge and it's never the patient!
This is the reality for the reasons given by Denver. I am retired from 32 years in the Michigan Court System. I have never encountered even an attempt to present a legal basis for an argument otherwise. The patient certainly is the employer/customer, and is in charge as to whether the operation or procedure should take place at all. Once agreed to, that patient is not in charge as to the particulars of how the procedure is done, or how the operating room is run, unless there are options that are beforehand stipulated to between the patient and doctor.

Matters like birth photography, the father "cutting the cord", etc. are apparently sometimes offered as a courtesy to the family, and also for PR, when it is done in a way that conforms to safety and a smoothly-run procedure, at the discretion of the physician in charge.


Last edited by mikesbike; 07-16-2021 at 06:16 PM.
07-16-2021, 09:34 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
Matters like birth photography, the father "cutting the cord", etc. are apparently sometimes offered as a courtesy to the family, and also for PR, when it is done in a way that conforms to safety and a smoothly-run procedure, at the discretion of the physician in charge.
Outside of one specific hospital in our area, they seem to all be fairly open to the wishes of the parents, within reason. In one of our C-sections, we were allowed a dedicated photographer and doula (basically someone that acts as a comforting voice of reason to help the mother and father keep their composure during the birth). Everyone has to scrub in and they are briefed on what is allowed in the OR, but the staff has always been welcoming.
07-20-2021, 11:31 AM - 1 Like   #24
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Just an update that we talked to the doctor that'll be overseeing the operation, and no problem with the camera as long as things are going smooth. After delivery, and said it'll be other attendees closing everything up and she'll likely be the one taking the photos.

I decided I'm going to go with the 18-135mm lens as well. I was doing a fair bit of test photos with it and the 35mm lens, and it pretty much came down to the focusing. I think the screw drive may risk being distracting with how loud it can be. The 18-135mm has been doing pretty good at various focal lengths (I had some focus calibration concerns), and is nearly silent. So fingers crossed he stays put for 3 more days.
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