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12-03-2008, 03:25 PM   #1
thomps6s
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K20D High Speed Sync Question

Forgive me if this has been covered but my searches yeilded no results.

I have a K20D and a 540fgz flash. I want to do Wireless High Speed Sync using the on board built in flash as the trigger.

I followed the instructions in the 540FGZ manual Multiple times and cannot get "WHS" to display on the camera's LCD. So, I cannot move the shutter speed past 1/180.

This is really frustrating me. I swear I am not an idiot, but man I am about to throw it out the window.


So, can you please help me out?

12-03-2008, 03:58 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by thomps6s Quote
Forgive me if this has been covered but my searches yeilded no results.

I have a K20D and a 540fgz flash. I want to do Wireless High Speed Sync using the on board built in flash as the trigger.

I followed the instructions in the 540FGZ manual Multiple times and cannot get "WHS" to display on the camera's LCD. So, I cannot move the shutter speed past 1/180.

This is really frustrating me. I swear I am not an idiot, but man I am about to throw it out the window.


So, can you please help me out?
Strange, the manual is really telling about HSS with onboard flash...

From my experience this is not possible? You'll need another external flash for wireless HSS.
12-03-2008, 04:04 PM   #3
thomps6s
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QuoteOriginally posted by solisti Quote
Strange, the manual is really telling about HSS with onboard flash...

From my experience this is not possible? You'll need another external flash for wireless HSS.

That really blows. I guess Pentax knows how to keep the money rolling in.
12-03-2008, 04:08 PM   #4
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Pentax is still doing better than Canon by allowing the on board flash to pilot another flash, The Canon way is a lot more expensive.

12-03-2008, 04:27 PM   #5
thomps6s
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QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
Pentax is still doing better than Canon by allowing the on board flash to pilot another flash, The Canon way is a lot more expensive.
I agree with you and just got off a chat with a support tech.


You have been connected to Randall S..
Randall S.: Thank you for contacting Pentax Chat Support. How may I help you?
Shawn Thompson: I have a question about the k20D and High Speed Wireless sync
Randall S.: okay, i'll try to help you
Shawn Thompson: Reading the manual I am made to believe I can accomplish this using the built in onboard flash as the controller and the 540fgz as the slave
Shawn Thompson: I cannot make it work
Randall S.: are you in the wireless mode?
Shawn Thompson: yes, I can fire it wirelessly but not past 1/180th
Randall S.: ok, i'm checking it for you.
Shawn Thompson: thanks
Randall S.: do you have the flash hi-speed sync mode?
Randall S.: set in high speed sync mode?
Randall S.: we're confirming that it will work wirelessly
Shawn Thompson: yes
Shawn Thompson: walk me through it
Shawn Thompson: maybe I am missing something?
Randall S.: yes, we're checking it out.
Randall S.: first, turn off the camera, then set the flash in wireless mode, put it in the camera hot shoe, turn on the camera to set the sync, then remove the flash from the camera....set the flash to slave mode.
Shawn Thompson: did that
Shawn Thompson: as soon as I open the pop up flash it goes to 1/180 and cannot go any faster
Randall S.: yes, that's what we are checking on now.
Randall S.: what we have determined is that the K20D is not going to allow high speed sync in wireless mode
Shawn Thompson: why not?
Shawn Thompson: bad camera or the K20 doesn't support the feature?
Randall S.: it is the way the k20 is designed if you're trying to trigger the off camera flash with the internal flash
Randall S.: it would probably work if you had another 540fgz on the hot shoe to trigger the off camera flash.
Shawn Thompson: so, I need to buy another 540fgz to use high speed sync?
Shawn Thompson: that is ridiculous
Randall S.: well, that is the way it is explained in the manual on pg. 145.
Randall S.: it would be nice if it would work with the pop up flash and I am going to suggest that we look into it with the product manager.
Randall S.: sorry it won't work for you the way you had it configured.
Shawn Thompson: I re-read p. 145 and don't see that i need 2 hot shoe flashes
Randall S.: what its saying is you have to use a flash on the hot shoe to be the trigger for the off camera flash in high speed sync mode.
Shawn Thompson: it says "using the built in flash with an External Flash"
Randall S.: yes, but not in high speed sync mode.
Shawn Thompson: Ok, Well, I appreciate your time and if this could be a firmware upgrade it would make a lot of people happy.
Randall S.: it won't work with the pop up flash
Shawn Thompson: Thanks Again!
Randall S.: Thank you for dropping by, Shawn, and have a great day!


I won't get mys hopes up but maybe it could be a firmware upgrade?
12-03-2008, 04:42 PM   #6
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hate to tell you, but I'm fairly sure it's some hardware limitation. I don't think Nikon can do this either:
Flickr: Discussing D300, SB800 & Nikon CLS with FP high speed sync flash ? in Strobist.com
12-03-2008, 04:42 PM   #7
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Hi all,

Let's not jump to conclusions so fast...

I just did a test with my K20D + shoe-mounted AF540FGZ.

Assumptions:
K20D + DA*16-50 + AF540FGZ
P mode
Auto-ISO
everything "greened", AFpoint, shutter mode, matrix metering
Procedure:
Press "green" and then increase shutter speed via front dial until it stop moving.

With the AF540FGZ mounted and set to "Green":
Pointed at dark area in room: shutter speeds top out at widest aperture. No attempt to adjust auto-ISO are attempted by the program. (ISO 800 had been auto-selected)

Pointed at a lit lightbulb, ISO 100 was auto-selected, but my shutter speed could be increased up to, but not past 1/180th.

With the AF540FGZ mounted and set to HSS:
Pointed at a darker area of the room, my shutter could still not be increased past my widest aperture, and program mode did not increase my sensitivity past it's initial reading of ISO800. This maxed me out around 1/60th s shutter speeds, even though HSS was selected.

Pointed at the brightly lit lightbulb, things were different. I was now able to choose 1/4000th using the front-dial. I could not do this before enabling HSS on the AF540FGZ.


Conclusion:

In program mode, I think you can use HSS to select higher shutter speeds and the auto-metering system will operate correctly and successfully. However, you have to have enough light to allow the shutter speed to work without your flash to select higher speeds. This seems wrong (useless?) to me. But it only seems to affect Program Mode. I've noticed this behavior before, but never re-investigated it until tonight.

By changing to Tv, I am able to choose 180th, no matter where the camera was pointed.

What mode are you using? And what's your camera pointed at?
I know it's not the same as your scenario, but they might be...

-Chris

Last edited by hinckc; 12-03-2008 at 04:44 PM. Reason: added last two sentences
12-03-2008, 04:54 PM   #8
thomps6s
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QuoteOriginally posted by hinckc Quote
Hi all,

Let's not jump to conclusions so fast...

I just did a test with my K20D + shoe-mounted AF540FGZ.

Assumptions:
K20D + DA*16-50 + AF540FGZ
P mode
Auto-ISO
everything "greened", AFpoint, shutter mode, matrix metering
Procedure:
Press "green" and then increase shutter speed via front dial until it stop moving.

With the AF540FGZ mounted and set to "Green":
Pointed at dark area in room: shutter speeds top out at widest aperture. No attempt to adjust auto-ISO are attempted by the program. (ISO 800 had been auto-selected)

Pointed at a lit lightbulb, ISO 100 was auto-selected, but my shutter speed could be increased up to, but not past 1/180th.

With the AF540FGZ mounted and set to HSS:
Pointed at a darker area of the room, my shutter could still not be increased past my widest aperture, and program mode did not increase my sensitivity past it's initial reading of ISO800. This maxed me out around 1/60th s shutter speeds, even though HSS was selected.

Pointed at the brightly lit lightbulb, things were different. I was now able to choose 1/4000th using the front-dial. I could not do this before enabling HSS on the AF540FGZ.


Conclusion:

In program mode, I think you can use HSS to select higher shutter speeds and the auto-metering system will operate correctly and successfully. However, you have to have enough light to allow the shutter speed to work without your flash to select higher speeds. This seems wrong (useless?) to me. But it only seems to affect Program Mode. I've noticed this behavior before, but never re-investigated it until tonight.

By changing to Tv, I am able to choose 180th, no matter where the camera was pointed.

What mode are you using? And what's your camera pointed at?
I know it's not the same as your scenario, but they might be...

-Chris
I am wanting to do this in Wireless mode. I can do HSS with the 540fgz on the hot shoe.

12-03-2008, 05:07 PM   #9
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I understand you are attempting wireless mode, different from my test.

But what I'm suggesting is that there's an additional limitation that affects both hot-shoe and wireless flash, with respect to HSS.

In P mode, you cannot increase your shutter (via front dial) past what the meter sees pre-flash. (this is what I thought you were experiencing)

In Tv mode, you can increase up to 1/180ths in normal flash mode.

In Tv mode you can increase your shutter speed to max with flash in HSS mode.

I didn't make this point clear enough, despite my overly-long attempt at explaining.

Though it still might not be the problem you're having, and based on your conversation with technical support, wireless doesn't support HSS, period.

I guess we can hope for a f/w upgrade!

-Chris
12-03-2008, 05:30 PM   #10
thomps6s
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QuoteOriginally posted by hinckc Quote
I understand you are attempting wireless mode, different from my test.

But what I'm suggesting is that there's an additional limitation that affects both hot-shoe and wireless flash, with respect to HSS.

In P mode, you cannot increase your shutter (via front dial) past what the meter sees pre-flash. (this is what I thought you were experiencing)

In Tv mode, you can increase up to 1/180ths in normal flash mode.

In Tv mode you can increase your shutter speed to max with flash in HSS mode.

I didn't make this point clear enough, despite my overly-long attempt at explaining.

Though it still might not be the problem you're having, and based on your conversation with technical support, wireless doesn't support HSS, period.

I guess we can hope for a f/w upgrade!

-Chris
Thanks for the responses
12-03-2008, 05:42 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by thomps6s Quote
Randall S.: it would probably work if you had another 540fgz on the hot shoe to trigger the off camera flash.
This isn't what you want either, but afaik you can use an AF360 to do the triggering instead of a second AF540. Might save a little bit of money
12-03-2008, 05:45 PM   #12
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My friend's Sony can do HSS through the built-in flash. Not sure if it's a software or hardware problem though.
12-03-2008, 05:48 PM   #13
thomps6s
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QuoteOriginally posted by cpopham Quote
This isn't what you want either, but afaik you can use an AF360 to do the triggering instead of a second AF540. Might save a little bit of money
I thought about that. For my off camera stuff, I use 3 Nikon SB-24's with Cactus trigger and receivers. This was just going to be another tool for me to use for killing daylight. I don't want to spend any more money on Pentax Flashes right now.

Thanks for the suggestion though!
12-03-2008, 07:15 PM   #14
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Try this:
- set the Pentax popup flash into Commander mode to disable any flash contribution
- try taking a photo at 1/2000sec again

I talked to a D80 friend and he said HSS only works if his popup is in commander mode (no flash contribution). I'd bet it's because of a hardware limitation on the popup that it can't do the constant light source simulation that a flash can do...
12-03-2008, 07:19 PM   #15
thomps6s
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Try this:
- set the Pentax popup flash into Commander mode to disable any flash contribution
- try taking a photo at 1/2000sec again

I talked to a D80 friend and he said HSS only works if his popup is in commander mode (no flash contribution). I'd bet it's because of a hardware limitation on the popup that it can't do the constant light source simulation that a flash can do...


Thanks for the suggestion. I tried that and there was no change.
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