Complete Monochrome conversion of Pentax K200D

BenwayB · 02-12-2022, 04:23 PM

Hello,

today I tried to convert a k-m.

I managed to disassemble and reassemble it, but...

To remove the cover glass from the sensor, was horrible.
It took ne about 1 hour and came of in little pieces only.
No fun!

And then working on the sensor...

The first (black) layer on the sensor is way softer then on the k110d.
But the layer below... Finally I did not manage to clean the sensor successfully. The whole sensor surface seems to be structured, therefore some of the coating did remain in / on the surface.

I did put everything back together and the camera is fine... But the sensor is for "special effects" only ;-)

This camera is definitely a complete different story then the K110D.
To convert a K110D is a piece of cake ;-)

As the K-m was my test camera, before I try to work on a K-10D... do you have any suggestions?
I expect the K-10D to have the same sensor... did you face the same issues with the rough surface and how did you handle it?

Best regards :-)

BenwayB · 02-20-2022, 02:46 PM - **4 Likes**

Hello,

after failing with the K-m, i gave it another try with the K110D

=> Success! :-)

As you can see, there is a different amount of CFA left on the sensor on the left and right side in the final pictures.
"In reality", that means - what i left on the sensore, both sides have been the same. ...!

Ths result has been achived by:
* Softening the CFA layer a little bit with paint stripper

* scratching of the CFA layer with soft!!!! (this is very improtant) brass. If you can cut it with a caliper, ist is soft - if it is brittle ... it is NOT soft and will damage the sensor.
* final cleaning has been done with IPA

The picture have been taken with:

* K110D
* DA 15 ltd.
* ISO ?? :-)
* AV ?? :-)
* Please take the shutter speed into account, when judging on the sharpness :-)

The pictures have been processed:

* with monochrome2DNG
* in Lightroom "automatic light correction"
* lens correction
* no other corrections
* Export to specified size (original picture)
* I have cropped the picture a little bit, and did another export to the specified size - so this is not a real perfect 100 % crop.

The RAWs in Lightroom look far better, then the JPG export for the internet upload ... :-(

=> K10D next :-)

// I'm going to prepare a comparison of the image quality: K100D "colour" vs. K110D monochrome ... :-)

Best regards!

Medex · 02-20-2022, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by BenwayB

Hello,

after failing with the K-m, i gave it another try with the K110D

=> Success! :-)

As you can see, there is a different amount of CFA left on the sensor on the left and right side in the final pictures.
"In reality", that means - what i left on the sensore, both sides have been the same. ...!

Ths result has been achived by:
* Softening the CFA layer a little bit with paint stripper

* scratching of the CFA layer with soft!!!! (this is very improtant) brass. If you can cut it with a caliper, ist is soft - if it is brittle ... it is NOT soft and will damage the sensor.
* final cleaning has been done with IPA

The picture have been taken with:

* K110D
* DA 15 ltd.
* ISO ?? :-)
* AV ?? :-)
* Please take the shutter speed into account, when judging on the sharpness :-)

The pictures have been processed:

* with monochrome2DNG
* in Lightroom "automatic light correction"
* lens correction
* no other corrections
* Export to specified size (original picture)
* I have cropped the picture a little bit, and did another export to the specified size - so this is not a real perfect 100 % crop.

The RAWs in Lightroom look far better, then the JPG export for the internet upload ... :-(

=> K10D next :-)

// I'm going to prepare a comparison of the image quality: K100D "colour" vs. K110D monochrome ... :-)

Best regards!

Looks very good. I remember my first k100d conversion and pictures shot with FA31. I liked those big pixels.

BenwayB · 02-27-2022, 10:07 AM

Hello,

today I had the chance to proceed with comparing my converted K110D to my K100D.

My goal was to figure out, whether monochrome conversion really makes sence (for me), whether there are really improvements over shooting "colour" and converting to monochrome afterwards.

* Is there a gain in resolution?
* Is there a gain in sensitivity?
* Is there a gain in exposure range?

What I did:
* I shot the same things with both cameras; both of them as RAW, same ISO settings.
* I converted the pictures from the converted K110D with monochrome2DNG.
* I compared the final RAWs in Lightroom Classic. Besides lens-corrections: no other changes made.

What I did expect:
* I expected, that the effect / the benefit of a monochrome conversion is most present with an old 6MPX camera - as resulution is far more relevant, as when shooting with a 16-39 MPX camera ... :-)
* "More light to reach the sensor"

What i got:
1) Resolution as "number as pixels":
I think I do miss something here. I would expect, that there is 4x as much resolution in the picture, compared to a colour-shot.
But: resolution (as number of pixels) is exactly the same - do I do a mistake here? Wrong converter? Wrong settings?

2) Resolution as "information that i can see" / "visual inspection":
Hm ... this is really hard to say. There MAY be a slight improvement on the edges and micro-structures of whatever - but if you would ask me, which picture is better, which resolution is higher ... this is really hard to say.
I would not be able to say this, just looking on the final picture.

3) Sensitivity:
The same picture taken with the "colour-sensor" (same ISO, same aperture): 1/180 vs. 1/250

-----------------------------

Conclusion so far:

* Sensitivity does increase by 28 %.
* Resulution ... hm ... hard to say; definitly not wore then the colour image converted to BW, but not that much better - still looking for improvements in postprocessing!

Any suggestings are welcome :-)

With this amount of improvement, I think it is not worth loosing the ability to shoot colour.
From my current perspective it makes a lot more sense to by a slightly better colour-body (K3 instead of K5, K10 instead of K100, K-S1 instead of K-m, whatever ...:-) )

=> Please proove me wrong :-)

Best regards!

kypfer · 02-27-2022, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by BenwayB

With this amount of improvement, I think it is not worth loosing the ability to shoot colour.
From my current perspective it makes a lot more sense to by a slightly better colour-body (K3 instead of K5, K10 instead of K100, K-S1 instead of K-m, whatever ...:-) )
=> Please proove me wrong :-)
Best regards!

Thanks for these updates

I'm a great one for having as many options as reasonable, hence the number of cameras in my sig, … not needing to consider having to convert one to monochrome comes almost as a relief

Keep up the good work … practical facts are always interesting, even if they don't give the results one was hoping for

Medex · 02-28-2022, 04:00 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BenwayB

Hello,

today I had the chance to proceed with comparing my converted K110D to my K100D.

My goal was to figure out, whether monochrome conversion really makes sence (for me), whether there are really improvements over shooting "colour" and converting to monochrome afterwards.

* Is there a gain in resolution?
* Is there a gain in sensitivity?
* Is there a gain in exposure range?

What I did:
* I shot the same things with both cameras; both of them as RAW, same ISO settings.
* I converted the pictures from the converted K110D with monochrome2DNG.
* I compared the final RAWs in Lightroom Classic. Besides lens-corrections: no other changes made.

What I did expect:
* I expected, that the effect / the benefit of a monochrome conversion is most present with an old 6MPX camera - as resulution is far more relevant, as when shooting with a 16-39 MPX camera ... :-)
* "More light to reach the sensor"

What i got:
1) Resolution as "number as pixels":
I think I do miss something here. I would expect, that there is 4x as much resolution in the picture, compared to a colour-shot.
But: resolution (as number of pixels) is exactly the same - do I do a mistake here? Wrong converter? Wrong settings?

2) Resolution as "information that i can see" / "visual inspection":
Hm ... this is really hard to say. There MAY be a slight improvement on the edges and micro-structures of whatever - but if you would ask me, which picture is better, which resolution is higher ... this is really hard to say.
I would not be able to say this, just looking on the final picture.

3) Sensitivity:
The same picture taken with the "colour-sensor" (same ISO, same aperture): 1/180 vs. 1/250

-----------------------------

Conclusion so far:

* Sensitivity does increase by 28 %.
* Resulution ... hm ... hard to say; definitly not wore then the colour image converted to BW, but not that much better - still looking for improvements in postprocessing!

Any suggestings are welcome :-)

With this amount of improvement, I think it is not worth loosing the ability to shoot colour.
From my current perspective it makes a lot more sense to by a slightly better colour-body (K3 instead of K5, K10 instead of K100, K-S1 instead of K-m, whatever ...:-) )

=> Please proove me wrong :-)

Best regards!

I am sure you are wrong in many aspects.
1. Resolution in pixel numbers is the same, but on screen it is clearly seen, because demosaicing algorithm is not used and there is no color interpolation due to lack of Bayer CFA.
2. Resolution increase (not in pixel numbers but details of image) in practice is about 2x (not 4x, it is more marketing number).
3. Sensitivity increase is 2/3-1 stop.
I guess you got not these gains because, maybe, you left original UV-IR-cut filter that is anti-aliasing filter as well, though no gain in details and just 1/3 stop gain in sensitivity.

BenwayB · 02-28-2022, 07:25 AM

Hello,

and thanks for your suggestions :-)

There are 2 glas-filters over the sensors (i have disassambled so far).

1) No. 1 is fixed with screws in a frame, is is the "first glas layer" when disassambling the camera.
=> This one i have left as it is, i placed it again (as i think it is crucial to assure not to damage the thin gold wires, when cleaning the sensor?)

2) No. 2 is glued to the sensor-unit itself. This one I have removed (and is likly, to get demaged when it is being peeled of).

On your pictures both glas-filters have been removed?

Best regards :-)

Last edited by BenwayB; 02-28-2022 at 07:35 AM.

**cdw2000** · 02-28-2022, 08:00 AM

I have a K110D that I purchased cheap only to use to perform an SDM to screw drive conversion on a lens. Now that the lens is converted, the camera is sitting around looking for a purpose. :-)

I would like to give this monochrome conversion a try. Can you provide a little more detail the steps you took to successfully remove the CFA from the sensor on your K110D? Including what specific paint stripper you used?

This thread is very intriguing but lacking in some practical details on the how-to.

Thanks in advance.

BenwayB · 02-28-2022, 09:24 AM

Hello,

yes, i can provide more detailed information, but finally you have to give it a try :-)

Paint-stripper isn't needed i think, as it softens the surface a little bit, only.
I have purchased the one i used in germany, it might not be available on your side.
I have provided a link to the SDS, so that you can compare to other products.

More important is to have a tool, that provides the correct hardness.
If the tool is to hard, it will scratch the surface (knifes made of steel - and hard brass, too!!...)

If it is too soft, you don't manage to remove the layer or need to much force to do so.
For me, "brass (soft)" did work very well.
By cuttin the soft-brass-wire with a caliper, you generate a kind of sharp blade - this worked very well for me.
(I had to cut the wire again from time to time, to get a sharp edge again).

Most important is, to stay away from the edeges of the sensor. One little scratch outside the black surface towards the blue layer, and the sensor is done.

Please read some of my last postings in detail - i think i described all relevant aspects - and don't hasitate to ask, maybe i can help :-)

Good luck ! ;-)

Medex · 03-01-2022, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by BenwayB

Hello,

and thanks for your suggestions :-)

There are 2 glas-filters over the sensors (i have disassambled so far).

1) No. 1 is fixed with screws in a frame, is is the "first glas layer" when disassambling the camera.
=> This one i have left as it is, i placed it again (as i think it is crucial to assure not to damage the thin gold wires, when cleaning the sensor?)

2) No. 2 is glued to the sensor-unit itself. This one I have removed (and is likly, to get demaged when it is being peeled of).

On your pictures both glas-filters have been removed?

Best regards :-)

No1 filter is sandvich of UV-IR cut filter (blue color) and anti-aliasing filter (part 1).
No2 filter (sensor cover glass) is presumably second anti-aliasing filter (part 2).
For example k-5 has a little different filter sandwiches compared to k100d.
All these filters should be removed and replaced with similar or same thickness UV-IR cut filter that has not anti-aliasing properties.

02-28-2022, 08:00 AM	#68
cdw2000 Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: New Hampshire Photos: Albums Posts: 244	Have K110D to expermient on, but looking for how-to I have a K110D that I purchased cheap only to use to perform an SDM to screw drive conversion on a lens. Now that the lens is converted, the camera is sitting around looking for a purpose. :-) I would like to give this monochrome conversion a try. Can you provide a little more detail the steps you took to successfully remove the CFA from the sensor on your K110D? Including what specific paint stripper you used? This thread is very intriguing but lacking in some practical details on the how-to. Thanks in advance.

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02-12-2022, 04:23 PM	#61
BenwayB Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 62	Hello, today I tried to convert a k-m. I managed to disassemble and reassemble it, but... To remove the cover glass from the sensor, was horrible. It took ne about 1 hour and came of in little pieces only. No fun! And then working on the sensor... The first (black) layer on the sensor is way softer then on the k110d. But the layer below... Finally I did not manage to clean the sensor successfully. The whole sensor surface seems to be structured, therefore some of the coating did remain in / on the surface. I did put everything back together and the camera is fine... But the sensor is for "special effects" only ;-) This camera is definitely a complete different story then the K110D. To convert a K110D is a piece of cake ;-) As the K-m was my test camera, before I try to work on a K-10D... do you have any suggestions? I expect the K-10D to have the same sensor... did you face the same issues with the rough surface and how did you handle it? Best regards :-)

02-20-2022, 09:58 PM	#63
Medex Pentaxian Join Date: May 2013 Location: Vilnius Posts: 1,020 Original Poster	Originally posted by BenwayB Hello, after failing with the K-m, i gave it another try with the K110D => Success! :-) As you can see, there is a different amount of CFA left on the sensor on the left and right side in the final pictures. "In reality", that means - what i left on the sensore, both sides have been the same. ...! Ths result has been achived by: * Softening the CFA layer a little bit with paint stripper * scratching of the CFA layer with soft!!!! (this is very improtant) brass. If you can cut it with a caliper, ist is soft - if it is brittle ... it is NOT soft and will damage the sensor. * final cleaning has been done with IPA The picture have been taken with: * K110D * DA 15 ltd. * ISO ?? :-) * AV ?? :-) * Please take the shutter speed into account, when judging on the sharpness :-) The pictures have been processed: * with monochrome2DNG * in Lightroom "automatic light correction" * lens correction * no other corrections * Export to specified size (original picture) * I have cropped the picture a little bit, and did another export to the specified size - so this is not a real perfect 100 % crop. The RAWs in Lightroom look far better, then the JPG export for the internet upload ... :-( => K10D next :-) // I'm going to prepare a comparison of the image quality: K100D "colour" vs. K110D monochrome ... :-) Best regards! Looks very good. I remember my first k100d conversion and pictures shot with FA31. I liked those big pixels.

02-27-2022, 10:07 AM	#64
BenwayB Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 62	Hello, today I had the chance to proceed with comparing my converted K110D to my K100D. My goal was to figure out, whether monochrome conversion really makes sence (for me), whether there are really improvements over shooting "colour" and converting to monochrome afterwards. * Is there a gain in resolution? * Is there a gain in sensitivity? * Is there a gain in exposure range? What I did: * I shot the same things with both cameras; both of them as RAW, same ISO settings. * I converted the pictures from the converted K110D with monochrome2DNG. * I compared the final RAWs in Lightroom Classic. Besides lens-corrections: no other changes made. What I did expect: * I expected, that the effect / the benefit of a monochrome conversion is most present with an old 6MPX camera - as resulution is far more relevant, as when shooting with a 16-39 MPX camera ... :-) * "More light to reach the sensor" What i got: 1) Resolution as "number as pixels": I think I do miss something here. I would expect, that there is 4x as much resolution in the picture, compared to a colour-shot. But: resolution (as number of pixels) is exactly the same - do I do a mistake here? Wrong converter? Wrong settings? 2) Resolution as "information that i can see" / "visual inspection": Hm ... this is really hard to say. There MAY be a slight improvement on the edges and micro-structures of whatever - but if you would ask me, which picture is better, which resolution is higher ... this is really hard to say. I would not be able to say this, just looking on the final picture. 3) Sensitivity: The same picture taken with the "colour-sensor" (same ISO, same aperture): 1/180 vs. 1/250 ----------------------------- Conclusion so far: * Sensitivity does increase by 28 %. * Resulution ... hm ... hard to say; definitly not wore then the colour image converted to BW, but not that much better - still looking for improvements in postprocessing! Any suggestings are welcome :-) With this amount of improvement, I think it is not worth loosing the ability to shoot colour. From my current perspective it makes a lot more sense to by a slightly better colour-body (K3 instead of K5, K10 instead of K100, K-S1 instead of K-m, whatever ...:-) ) => Please proove me wrong :-) Best regards!

02-27-2022, 11:21 AM	#65
kypfer Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Jersey C.I. Posts: 3,593	Originally posted by BenwayB With this amount of improvement, I think it is not worth loosing the ability to shoot colour. From my current perspective it makes a lot more sense to by a slightly better colour-body (K3 instead of K5, K10 instead of K100, K-S1 instead of K-m, whatever ...:-) ) => Please proove me wrong :-) Best regards! Thanks for these updates I'm a great one for having as many options as reasonable, hence the number of cameras in my sig, … not needing to consider having to convert one to monochrome comes almost as a relief Keep up the good work … practical facts are always interesting, even if they don't give the results one was hoping for

02-28-2022, 04:00 AM - 1 Like	#66
Medex Pentaxian Join Date: May 2013 Location: Vilnius Posts: 1,020 Original Poster	Originally posted by BenwayB Hello, today I had the chance to proceed with comparing my converted K110D to my K100D. My goal was to figure out, whether monochrome conversion really makes sence (for me), whether there are really improvements over shooting "colour" and converting to monochrome afterwards. * Is there a gain in resolution? * Is there a gain in sensitivity? * Is there a gain in exposure range? What I did: * I shot the same things with both cameras; both of them as RAW, same ISO settings. * I converted the pictures from the converted K110D with monochrome2DNG. * I compared the final RAWs in Lightroom Classic. Besides lens-corrections: no other changes made. What I did expect: * I expected, that the effect / the benefit of a monochrome conversion is most present with an old 6MPX camera - as resulution is far more relevant, as when shooting with a 16-39 MPX camera ... :-) * "More light to reach the sensor" What i got: 1) Resolution as "number as pixels": I think I do miss something here. I would expect, that there is 4x as much resolution in the picture, compared to a colour-shot. But: resolution (as number of pixels) is exactly the same - do I do a mistake here? Wrong converter? Wrong settings? 2) Resolution as "information that i can see" / "visual inspection": Hm ... this is really hard to say. There MAY be a slight improvement on the edges and micro-structures of whatever - but if you would ask me, which picture is better, which resolution is higher ... this is really hard to say. I would not be able to say this, just looking on the final picture. 3) Sensitivity: The same picture taken with the "colour-sensor" (same ISO, same aperture): 1/180 vs. 1/250 ----------------------------- Conclusion so far: * Sensitivity does increase by 28 %. * Resulution ... hm ... hard to say; definitly not wore then the colour image converted to BW, but not that much better - still looking for improvements in postprocessing! Any suggestings are welcome :-) With this amount of improvement, I think it is not worth loosing the ability to shoot colour. From my current perspective it makes a lot more sense to by a slightly better colour-body (K3 instead of K5, K10 instead of K100, K-S1 instead of K-m, whatever ...:-) ) => Please proove me wrong :-) Best regards! I am sure you are wrong in many aspects. 1. Resolution in pixel numbers is the same, but on screen it is clearly seen, because demosaicing algorithm is not used and there is no color interpolation due to lack of Bayer CFA. 2. Resolution increase (not in pixel numbers but details of image) in practice is about 2x (not 4x, it is more marketing number). 3. Sensitivity increase is 2/3-1 stop. I guess you got not these gains because, maybe, you left original UV-IR-cut filter that is anti-aliasing filter as well, though no gain in details and just 1/3 stop gain in sensitivity.

02-28-2022, 07:25 AM	#67
BenwayB Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 62	Hello, and thanks for your suggestions :-) There are 2 glas-filters over the sensors (i have disassambled so far). 1) No. 1 is fixed with screws in a frame, is is the "first glas layer" when disassambling the camera. => This one i have left as it is, i placed it again (as i think it is crucial to assure not to damage the thin gold wires, when cleaning the sensor?) 2) No. 2 is glued to the sensor-unit itself. This one I have removed (and is likly, to get demaged when it is being peeled of). On your pictures both glas-filters have been removed? Best regards :-) Last edited by BenwayB; 02-28-2022 at 07:35 AM.

02-28-2022, 09:24 AM	#69
BenwayB Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 62	Hello, yes, i can provide more detailed information, but finally you have to give it a try :-) Paint-stripper isn't needed i think, as it softens the surface a little bit, only. I have purchased the one i used in germany, it might not be available on your side. I have provided a link to the SDS, so that you can compare to other products. More important is to have a tool, that provides the correct hardness. If the tool is to hard, it will scratch the surface (knifes made of steel - and hard brass, too!!...) If it is too soft, you don't manage to remove the layer or need to much force to do so. For me, "brass (soft)" did work very well. By cuttin the soft-brass-wire with a caliper, you generate a kind of sharp blade - this worked very well for me. (I had to cut the wire again from time to time, to get a sharp edge again). Most important is, to stay away from the edeges of the sensor. One little scratch outside the black surface towards the blue layer, and the sensor is done. Please read some of my last postings in detail - i think i described all relevant aspects - and don't hasitate to ask, maybe i can help :-) Good luck ! ;-)

03-01-2022, 02:35 PM	#70
Medex Pentaxian Join Date: May 2013 Location: Vilnius Posts: 1,020 Original Poster	Originally posted by BenwayB Hello, and thanks for your suggestions :-) There are 2 glas-filters over the sensors (i have disassambled so far). 1) No. 1 is fixed with screws in a frame, is is the "first glas layer" when disassambling the camera. => This one i have left as it is, i placed it again (as i think it is crucial to assure not to damage the thin gold wires, when cleaning the sensor?) 2) No. 2 is glued to the sensor-unit itself. This one I have removed (and is likly, to get demaged when it is being peeled of). On your pictures both glas-filters have been removed? Best regards :-) No1 filter is sandvich of UV-IR cut filter (blue color) and anti-aliasing filter (part 1). No2 filter (sensor cover glass) is presumably second anti-aliasing filter (part 2). For example k-5 has a little different filter sandwiches compared to k100d. All these filters should be removed and replaced with similar or same thickness UV-IR cut filter that has not anti-aliasing properties.