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12-11-2008, 07:51 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
How good is the Pentax K20D? Well, I was just asked again to participate in the next Cannes International Festival of Fashion Photography for 2009. The images used will be blown up to between 2x3 meters to 3.5x5 meters and were shot with the K20D. Now if that does not work for those concerned about the output of this tool...I guess i'll have to change professions.

Ben
Congrats Ben sounds like a great gig, hope you enjoy yourself

12-11-2008, 08:44 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Nice work Ben, congratulations! Will we be able to see your images?
Of course. I will post them on the forum, as I have for quite some time now.

Best Wishes,
Ben

A sample from an earlier Festival the summer of 2007, with the K10D...
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12-12-2008, 05:47 AM   #18
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Not long after reading your post about the fellow who saw your A2 prints and commented that it was nice to see you using medium format again I placed three A3 prints in my local photo club's annual exhibition. Took them all using the K20D, SMC Takumar 55/1.8, and an AF200T flash. (The lens and flash each set me back ten whole bucks!).

The reaction they received was very gratifying, and the conversations can be summed up like this:

"What did you shoot those with?"
"Pentax."
"645?"
"K20D"
"What's that? Medium format?"
"Nope, DSLR."
"Didn't know Pentax made DSLRs. How much did it cost?"
"They're considerably under $1000 now....the lens cost $10."

Ahhhhh.....such fun....such fun.
12-12-2008, 06:57 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
The K20D seems an excellent camera but its sensor isn't any better than the K10D's. They are so similar in performance terms as to make any differences practically negligible. See here: Pentax Photography: DxO Mark sensor tests - no place to hide?

If you don't need the extra pixels - and they're only useful if you want to do really big enlargements or crop a lot - then you're as well sticking with the K10D.

Ben's success with his K20D has nothing to do with the camera and everything to do with his ability as a photographer. He would have had the same success with any similarly-specced camera snce there's virtually nothing between them in image quality.

Bruce
That Dx0 rating's pretty interesting, but it seems a little suspect in some cases... For example, it has the D90 sensor rating much higher than the D300, and has the K200D's low-light ISO rating higher than the K20D's - both those results would probably not be what owners of each of those sets of cameras would concur with.

12-12-2008, 07:27 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
The K20D seems an excellent camera but its sensor isn't any better than the K10D's. They are so similar in performance terms as to make any differences practically negligible. See here: Pentax Photography: DxO Mark sensor tests - no place to hide?

If you don't need the extra pixels - and they're only useful if you want to do really big enlargements or crop a lot - then you're as well sticking with the K10D...
I would say you're making a false assumption when you say that the K20D's sensor isn't any better than the K10D based on a suspect test report and not having actually owned the K20D. The K20D isn't just about more megapixels. As an ex-K10D owner, in my book the K20D's sensor is much better than the K10D's sensor in resolution, colour rendition, WB accuracy, noise and dynamic range. Every K20D owner I know personally testifies to the superiority of the K20D's CMOS sensor.
12-12-2008, 10:29 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
The DxO Analyser doesn't do "suspect tests". It's a very sophisiticated piece of equipment and is recognised as such. You might not like or agree with its findings but you can't argue with their accuracy or independence.
Of course you can argue; if you can't argue, it's not science.

You just have to bring some facts to the argument, which is to say, something measurable, and about which other people may get the same result when they do the measuring.

It is incredibly easy to make severe errors when creating sophisticated statistical tests; people do not naturally think in a statistical or probabilistic way. Closed/undisclosed methodologies are inherently suspect for this reason, even when there is no reason to doubt the good will or intentions of the persons making use of the methodology.
12-12-2008, 11:33 AM   #22
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I was quite interested in DXO tests but in reallity we don't don't know much on about their protocol of testing, in particular it is not said how much samples they used for testing a specific model of camera.

The data aggregated like pixel count etc... are not accurate either.

When talking about about SNR (noise), the method of DXO is not so relevant as it calculate a SNR per pixel. This is not the way we see a picture, a lower SNR ratio (meaning an image more noisy at 100% ratio) but on a bigger picture (pixel count wise) may actually look better. This is because the human eye will make a mean by itself.

Pentax also chose to apply little noise reduction (by software) to preserve details (in comparision with Canon and Nikon)

So to sumarize :
- Higher pixel count allows higher SNR at pixel level
- Using noise reduction algorithm reduces level of details.

A better way to compare noise performance of sensors (and trying to isolate sensor from the camera) would be to :
- Get all images at the same size : fusionning pixels on the biggest sensor would reduce a lot noise. but we can even optimize it by using some more sofisticated algorithms.
- Get all images with the same spatial frequencies curve. That means to reduce the details on the sharpest images. (Noise can be seen as sort of high spatial frequency pattern)

Then we may have a more objective noise performance comparison. This is very mean to the k20D to compare 100% magnification samples with 10Mpx cameras.

And at the end, cameras are here to make pictures, not measurebeating, this forum has some professional photographers and most of them will tell that they take better pictures with the K20D than with the K10D. Benjikan beeing the most obvious example.

My own experience correlates it, I bought a K20D for better low light performance, and I must say that to me, the K20D outperform the K10D in every aspect. And I took hundreds of picture of pictures with the K10D and the K20D.
12-12-2008, 02:41 PM   #23
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I love my K10D...I love my K10D...I love my K10D...I love my K10D...

Forget cheap K20D talk...Forget cheap K20D talk...Forget cheap K20D talk...Forget cheap K20D talk...

Steve

(Sitting in the corner, rocking...rocking...rocking...rocking...)

12-12-2008, 02:47 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
...Ben's success with his K20D has nothing to do with the camera and everything to do with his ability as a photographer. He would have had the same success with any similarly-specced camera snce there's virtually nothing between them in image quality...
That is at least partially true except that Ben has stated on this forum that from the currently available tools (cameras), only the K20D is capable of the image characteristics he seeks for his pictures. From what I can tell, I think he is saying that the tool is essential for the results.

Steve
12-12-2008, 03:14 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
Well put. I think that's where the DxO Analyser comes in (at least as far as sensors are concerned) and where subjective evaluations are found wanting.

Hi Bruce,

With all due respect, I disagree with your conclusion. If there were an even split between those who've owned and used both the K10 and K20, then I'd say that there would be merit to your argument (for "objective" vs "subjective" evaluations). But from what I've seen in the admittedly subjective evaluations of actual users in a number of different fora, there seems to be overwhelming agreement that the K20 is able to give significantly better results than the K10 where the users have significant experience shooting both cameras.

Are all these users delusional?. . . possibly . . . I've seen too many instances where perception doesn't quite agree with "reality" to state that subjective evaluations should trump measurable data. My tendency would normally be to trust the measured data, but when this data is based on a limited sampling of a manufactured product, it has to be at least a little suspect, especially when it is widely known that sample variations exist in the product.

I realise that reviewers and testing organisations are limited by time and resources, and therefore have to base their conclusions on established protocols, and that consistent limited sampling of all items tested results in a practically relative, statistically justifiable parity between subjects, but it does not guaratee any degree of accuracy that can generally be applied to all samples of that particular product. Their ratings, at best, can be considered just another tool for one researching DSLRs to help in making the decision, not the final word. . .

Your particular bias is that you want to justify staying with the K10, and the "objective" test results back your decision, along with a significant number of the professional reviewers who seem to feel that the K20 is an incremental, evolutionary upgrade of the K10. Personally, I really don't have a dog in that fight, so if that satisfies you, then that's great, but IMO, your opinion adds little real information to the subject.

One bias of mine (probably among many) is that I was an early adopter of the K20 (and therefore paid close to original MSRP), and I'd like to think that the money was well spent (I do!). The difference is that I've used both side by side, with the same lenses, and the same idiot behind the viewfinder, I've found few instances, if any, where I'd pick the K10 over the K20 when choosing a body to use for a particular shoot -- it's not even close. I think that most users who have significant experience with both cameras would say the same thing. In fact, I still have my DS, and it might seem strange, but I usually put more thought into the decision between the DS and the K10 as to my choice for a second body to carry, despite the major differences between the two bodies (10 vs 6 MP, SR vs no SR, focusing speed, P_TTL with wireless vs the ability to use TTL if I choose, a common battery vs carrying extra spare AAs. . .etc)

I will admit that I'm far from the most discriminating photographer. I shoot birds, on an admittedly amateur level, and a lot of what I want in an image does not necessarily conform to what the great majority of photographers are looking for in the fine points of IQ, so my opinion is not based on either traditional, or even typical IQ criteria.

As many have said before, I think the K20 (mostly due to the sensor) is just about everything I had hoped the K10 woud be when it was announced.

Scott
12-12-2008, 03:42 PM   #26
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Using objective metrics to judge something that produces subjective output is...suspect. I have always had a problem with pixel peeping, brick wall photos and the like. These "objective" measurements often fall in the same ballpark. Our eyes and brains are not the same as the machines, so numbers that we take as gospel don't necessarily correlate to anything that we actually see and/or process.

At the end of the day they are numbers. They are an approximation of something, and clearly a measurement, but their *real* meaning is always subject to interpretation and bias. Until we are cyborgs with digital eyeballs and brains, this will always be the case. That isn't to say that the measurements and numbers have no meaning, but rather than one should have some degree of contextualization and a nice salt lick to go with them.
12-12-2008, 03:45 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
How good is the Pentax K20D? Well, I was just asked again to participate in the next Cannes International Festival of Fashion Photography for 2009. The images used will be blown up to between 2x3 meters to 3.5x5 meters and were shot with the K20D. Now if that does not work for those concerned about the output of this tool...I guess i'll have to change professions.

Ben

My congratulations to you Ben.. well done mate


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12-12-2008, 04:37 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
Well put. I think that's where the DxO Analyser comes in (at least as far as sensors are concerned) and where subjective evaluations are found wanting.
I work in a studio, and so am using the same or similar lights/ lighting and the same lenses in the same environment.

As I mentioned earlier in the post, I think the K20 is doing a better job as a picture taking machine than my K10 did.
Whether this is a subjective opinion or otherwise is of no consequence to me. I don't care overly about how much better it is (which is about all that an objective opinion could give me).
For my work, that I like the look of the pictures I am getting more than those from the K10 is all that really matters to me. Whether this is the sensor, or the firmware or a combination of the two doesn't matter to me, as the two are intertwined to the point of being inseparable.
12-12-2008, 11:25 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by navcom Quote
Man this is torture! I love my K10D but have been thinking of upgrading considering how cheap the K20D is right now. I have the money but my cheap side just doesn't want to part with it and my practical side keeps telling me, "what do you need it for? Your K10D is fulfilling your needs just fine."

I really would like the extra pixels and the better sensor as well as another camera body, but I just can't convince myself it's THAT much better to justify it.

...stupid practical side.
Wow, this was like plucked from the inner recesses of my mind. I am right there with you Navcom.

I think I have taken this Pentaxian think too far. A year ago I had a Digital rebel (yes the first one!) and now less than a year with the K10D and many lenses later I am considering the upgrade.

For me I would love to be able to shoot at higher ISO's. I feel the K10D is good up to 400 maybe 800. If I could get low noise at ISO 800/1600, I would be happy.

Hey, I thought this was a photography site: Let's see some photos! For those with experience with both I'd love to see some side by side comparisons to assess for noise, DR, IQ. Any posts or links would be great....
12-13-2008, 12:11 AM   #30
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QuoteQuote:
How Good is the K20D?

------------------------------------------------------------------------How good is the Pentax K20D? Well, I was just asked again to participate in the next Cannes International Festival of Fashion Photography for 2009. The images used will be blown up to between 2x3 meters to 3.5x5 meters and were shot with the K20D. Now if that does not work for those concerned about the output of this tool...I guess i'll have to change professions.

Ben
Congratulations and best of luck to you!
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