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12-13-2008, 07:11 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
The DxO Analyser doesn't do "suspect tests". It's a very sophisiticated piece of equipment and is recognised as such. You might not like or agree with its findings but you can't argue with their accuracy or independence.
This reminds me of the objectivist arguments in audio. They measure everything, then come uip with the wrong answer.

12-14-2008, 02:41 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I work in a studio, and so am using the same or similar lights/ lighting and the same lenses in the same environment.

As I mentioned earlier in the post, I think the K20 is doing a better job as a picture taking machine than my K10 did.
Whether this is a subjective opinion or otherwise is of no consequence to me. I don't care overly about how much better it is (which is about all that an objective opinion could give me).
For my work, that I like the look of the pictures I am getting more than those from the K10 is all that really matters to me. Whether this is the sensor, or the firmware or a combination of the two doesn't matter to me, as the two are intertwined to the point of being inseparable.
I am in total agreement with you. I have no problem shooting with the K10D, but I find the output of the K20D more appealing to my eye. It seems to have better latitude overall. It really is an entirely different camera than the K10D due to the new sensor. It would be similar to two different types of film akin to comparing Fuji to Kodak.

Ben
12-15-2008, 11:48 AM   #33
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Gee.....I wish I'd paid four times more for the K20D now. Then my pictures would be four times better.
12-15-2008, 12:03 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
I don't have a bias towards the K10D: I've just bought a Nikon D700. I shot some test pics with the K10D and K20D and didn't see any point in upgrading. There may be some slight improvment in image quality with the K20D but it wasn't apparent in the photographs I took. The DxO results just confirmed what I'd seen myself. If you're seeing a difference in quality then I'm pleased for you although I suspect in many cases that it's just the different default settings at work. The D700 is a different matter altogether but then it costs four times what the K20D does so that's to be expected.
Funny, I bought a K10d and took it back because I was not impressed with what I was getting out of the camera. I ended up checking out a K20d a month or so later and ended up buying it. Substantial difference in performance to my eye. That was having shot a few hundred real-world shots with each (not brick walls and other nonsense).

As I stated before, "objective" tests like the DxO stuff are of limited use imho. Art is subjective and humans are not only the analog critter behind the lens, but also the one interacting with the product. If you didn't see a difference then there wasn't one *for you*. And if you need an "objective" machine test to justify your opinion, then you're in luck that some lab (with bias) ran a test (with bias) and gave a result (with bias).

The bottom line is that if you're happy with your D700 then that is all that matters to you. But why in the world are you bothering to come here and "enlighten" the unwashed Pentax masses?

12-15-2008, 12:44 PM   #35
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You came here to essentially spam this forum with a link to your blog. Get much google ad money from your clicks?

I actually don't "identify" with my equipment. People here are curious about the tools that people use. That is the only reason I list them. But just to make you happy...

As for the photos on my (ad-free) blog, many are for my own use to document my life for myself and friends. If you really are nterested you can take a look at hk08 - Page 1 for something a little more serious. I'm always looking for enlightenment, but likely won't find it from someone who quotes DxO tests as gospel. Ymmv.

Last edited by nostatic; 12-15-2008 at 01:15 PM.
12-15-2008, 01:14 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
Sorry, but I don't get involved in forum arguments with people who identify with their equipment so much that they feel the need to list it at the bottom of their posts. And, by the way, having looked at the photographs on your blog, I'd say you're in dire need of some enlightenment!

I took part in this discussion because I felt there were people out there who would be tempted to buy a K20D when a K10D, which produces more or less the same results, would suit their needs just fine. Since I seem to have ruffled so many feathers wth this approach, I'll gracefully leave the forum before anyone else gets upset. Sorry to have bothered you guys.
Well, let's see...your "approach" is to post a link to your ad-sponsored blog, talk about results from an "objective" software analysis (which is proprietary, and you apparently don't understand bias and scientific measurement), dismiss the opinions of professional shooters here, then insult someone's photos just because they take you to task for holding out a single test as a gold standard for iq. And obviously not sorry enough to hold off from taking that parting shot from your moral high ground.

How would have thought there would be any ruffling? I'm shocked...shocked and dismayed. Shocked, dismayed and perhaps a bit perplexed. Wait, shocked, dismayed, perplexed and flummoxed. Yeah, that's it...
12-15-2008, 01:18 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
Think I'll just rise above this sort of comment.

Announcing that you're rising above a comment means you failed to do so.
12-15-2008, 01:18 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
The D700 is a different matter altogether but then it costs four times what the K20D does so that's to be expected.
The Online Photographer prefers the K20D IQ to that of the D700 at lower ISO numbers. Photoghraphy is an art. Image quality can't be stated in a number, that's why not everyone cares about measurements. The Online Photographer: The Nikon D700: The New 400

12-15-2008, 01:32 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bruce Robbins Quote
Sorry, but I don't get involved in forum arguments with people who identify with their equipment so much that they feel the need to list it at the bottom of their posts.

Identifying equipment used in signatures or the equivalent is a long-standing internet tradition, in computer forums, audio forums, car forums, etc, etc, and yes, camera forums. It's been a tradition in Usenet since before you bought your first computer. It just allows people in the forum to see and ask about equipment.

So, by saying something like this, it just highlights a particular thinness of experience on your part, covered by bluster, which probably extends to image making in general.

Take heart, however - the D700 is fine enough to cover many flaws on the part of the photographer!





Also, here's another nice T.O.P article featuring the K20D - putting it in a tie for 2nd place among new cameras, ahead of several much more expensive bodies. And, better IQ than the #1 overall pick, the D300:

QuoteQuote:
....
Nikon itself calls the D300 the best reduced-sensor-size camera it has ever built—no small claim. Although image quality is not quite as good as the K20D's, and the basic body style is not quite as pleasingly put together or as much of a pleasure to use at the Olympus E-3.....



.

Last edited by jsherman999; 12-15-2008 at 02:00 PM.
12-15-2008, 01:41 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Take heart, however - the D700 is fine enough to cover many flaws on the part of the photographer!
Not so sure about that. A friend of mine got one and he's still an arrogant arse...

I try to just stick with being an arse. one out of two ain't bad.
12-15-2008, 04:51 PM   #41
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I'm with you Navcom. I have a K10 and love it but the images from the K20 do look better to me. I don't know if it is the sensor or extra pixels or what but I do see a difference. The price of the K20 is getting more interesting all the time as well. I'm torn - new glass or new camera? Time and my wife will tell.

Cheers,

Tom G
12-15-2008, 05:16 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by 8540tomg Quote
I'm with you Navcom. I have a K10 and love it but the images from the K20 do look better to me. I don't know if it is the sensor or extra pixels or what but I do see a difference. The price of the K20 is getting more interesting all the time as well. I'm torn - new glass or new camera? Time and my wife will tell.

Cheers,

Tom G
Thought you might want to see another sample from the K20D...

https://www.pentaxforums.com/gallery/images/1074/3_6.jpg
12-15-2008, 06:11 PM   #43
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I'm expecting delivery of my very own K20 this week, the images on this forum and on flickr & pbase convinced me. No software can account for looking at thousands of images on those sites and drawing one's own conclusions.

@benjikan, awesome photograph. I especially like the bloom in the model's hand to keep her hand from being too prominent, nice touch.
12-15-2008, 08:35 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Thought you might want to see another sample from the K20D...

https://www.pentaxforums.com/gallery/images/1074/3_6.jpg
Ben....

...it's gotta be a riot being the person who orders all your props and outfits! The invoices have to read like the Christmas song..."two turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree...and triple the order"!

Great shot!
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