[reh321]

Why buy a new entry level camera when you can buy a used enthusiast or even pro level body for the same price or cheaper? We're at the point that the 5dmkii is about 400-450 usd.

The attraction to me is the “eye focus”.
I would be willing to give Pentax $1000 for that, but not more.
That is what I’ve been saying.
I recounted, and I actually have six {including the “Spotmatic” I recently purchased} working Pentax camera bodies which I will use.
I will use them until they all die {unlikely} before I send any more money to Pentax for the current lineup.
As I said when I started this sub-thread, I would spend $1000 for a camera with “eye focus”, but no more. Punct.
Pentax will do what they will, but that will affect me only if they offer something that would encourage me to send more money to them.

---

Last edited by reh321; 03-19-2022 at 03:51 PM.

[Rondec]

And for every body Pentax sells, how many do you figure Canon sells?
Well, that's easy to estimate. Canon has close to half the market at just over 47%, Pentax is in the "other" category which is around 6%, but Panasonic was 4.4%, so Pentax is probably around 1-2%.
So, for every camera Pentax sells, Canon is selling 25 or more.

You do know what the term "economy of scale " means? Because I get the feeling from this and other discussions that you really don't have any idea what it means.

The K70 is a 2016 model, it's 6 years old. It was introduced when the market was still in relatively good shape. It's paid for itself.
The market is no longer that market, and building a new camera isn't quite as simple as you pretend it is, so no I think you are outright wrong if you think they could introduce a thousand dollar camera now and hope to make any profit by doing it.

If Pentax ever releases a K-90, it won't be a K-3 III in a K-70 skin. The issue really isn't even the cost of the auto focus module -- the issue is that Pentax has no desire to steal sales from the K-3 III. If I were going to guess about K-90, my guess would be something that was at essentially a K-P level, but with 4K video and a little better buffer. Cost would be around 1200 dollars. I don't see anyway that it would have face recognition through the viewfinder as that seems to take a higher end metering system that I doubt Pentax would drop into a mid-tier camera.

Whether that would float in today's market I am not sure.

[reh321]

And for every body Pentax sells, how many do you figure Canon sells?
Well, that's easy to estimate. Canon has close to half the market at just over 47%, Pentax is in the "other" category which is around 6%, but Panasonic was 4.4%, so Pentax is probably around 1-2%.
So, for every camera Pentax sells, Canon is selling 25 or more.

You do know what the term "economy of scale " means? Because I get the feeling from this and other discussions that you really don't have any idea what it means.

The K70 is a 2016 model, it's 6 years old. It was introduced when the market was still in relatively good shape. It's paid for itself.
The market is no longer that market, and building a new camera isn't quite as simple as you pretend it is, so no I think you are outright wrong if you think they could introduce a thousand dollar camera now and hope to make any profit by doing it.

I earned a MBA at one time in life.
I was actually in the DBA program and taught a management course where we included such things.
So, “Yes” I am familiar with that - as well as concepts of marketing and production.
I will not continue to discuss such things with someone who is not as informed as he thinks he is.

I don’t know what Pentax will actually decide to do - they think behind a dark glass.

I stand by my statement that I will send money to Pentax only if they produce what I want at a price acceptable to me.
Otherwise I will continue to follow “”Plan A”, which consists of using the Pentax equipment I already have.

[RobA_Oz]

If Pentax ever releases a K-90, it won't be a K-3 III in a K-70 skin. The issue really isn't even the cost of the auto focus module -- the issue is that Pentax has no desire to steal sales from the K-3 III. If I were going to guess about K-90, my guess would be something that was at essentially a K-P level, but with 4K video and a little better buffer. Cost would be around 1200 dollars. I don't see anyway that it would have face recognition through the viewfinder as that seems to take a higher end metering system that I doubt Pentax would drop into a mid-tier camera.

Whether that would float in today's market I am not sure.

Performance expectations have been raised by phone camera technology. Take out a K-3iii viewfinder and some of the attraction of everything else is diminished, I think, even if it’s a necessary economy measure. The logical response would be to include an electronic viewfinder in a “low-end” model, as difficult a concept as that might be for a committed DSLR maker. However, that would probably impact on K-3iii sales, so I doubt it would happen any time soon. The next leap in DSLR technology would have to happen before any replacement for the K-70 might be considered, whatever that leap might be.

[reh321]

Performance expectations have been raised by phone camera technology. Take out a K-3iii viewfinder and some of the attraction of everything else is diminished, I think, even if it’s a necessary economy measure. The logical response would be to include an electronic viewfinder in a “low-end” model, as difficult a concept as that might be for a committed DSLR maker. However, that would probably impact on K-3iii sales, so I doubt it would happen any time soon. The next leap in DSLR technology would have to happen before any replacement for the K-70 might be considered, whatever that leap might be.

If I ran Pentax {but, of course, I have zero influence over them}, I would see
1. smart phones use LCDs
2. Sony is EVF-bound, and CANIKON are becoming that way
so I would use the introductory Pentax camera body - especially the introductory Pentax camera body - to introduce folk to the PRISM. It should look different to them, which is especially what is needed - marketing likes differences,

[Wheatfield]

I earned a MBA at one time in life.
I was actually in the DBA program and taught a management course where we included such things.
So, “Yes” I am familiar with that - as well as concepts of marketing and production.
I will not continue to discuss such things with someone who is not as informed as he thinks he is.

Thats pretty funny considering the context.

I stand by my statement that I will send money to Pentax only if they produce what I want at a price acceptable to me.
Otherwise I will continue to follow “”Plan A”, which consists of using the Pentax equipment I already have.

I suspect everyone feels that way about consumer goods in general. Most of us don't pontificate about it like it's a novel concept

---------- Post added Mar 20th, 2022 at 04:50 AM ----------

Performance expectations have been raised by phone camera technology. Take out a K-3iii viewfinder and some of the attraction of everything else is diminished, I think, even if it’s a necessary economy measure. The logical response would be to include an electronic viewfinder in a “low-end” model, as difficult a concept as that might be for a committed DSLR maker. However, that would probably impact on K-3iii sales, so I doubt it would happen any time soon. The next leap in DSLR technology would have to happen before any replacement for the K-70 might be considered, whatever that leap might be.

It would be rather odd for a company that has dedicated itself to optical viewfinders to drop an EVF onto a new camera.
That would also put wind in the sails of the Pentax must go EVF to be relevant crowd, who would immediately start bleating for a flagship camera with an EVF, and we would then have another prong of insufferability inflicted on us as the brand faded out of existence entirely as an also ran company with no vision.
Meanwhile the armchair CEOs would be making pronouncements about how if Pentax had only listened to them everything would be fine while conveniently ignoring the fact that Pentax was doing exactly what they suggested and that was what was sinking the company.
History repeats.

[texandrews]

Thread warning: straying into ad hominem territory, which everyone here knows is a no-no on Pentax Forums. If one can't make her/his case with facts and well reasoned arguments, than one shouldn't comment at all.

Any further slips, and all involved will see moderation penalties.

---

Last edited by texandrews; 03-20-2022 at 08:53 AM.

[normhead]

I have no use for much beyond a K-70 in any case. So the original question is answered "no". The only reason in my mind for making a new entry level camera would be the K-70 has gone out of production.

[RobA_Oz]

It would be rather odd for a company that has dedicated itself to optical viewfinders to drop an EVF onto a new camera.
That would also put wind in the sails of the Pentax must go EVF to be relevant crowd, who would immediately start bleating for a flagship camera with an EVF, and we would then have another prong of insufferability inflicted on us as the brand faded out of existence entirely as an also ran company with no vision.
Meanwhile the armchair CEOs would be making pronouncements about how if Pentax had only listened to them everything would be fine while conveniently ignoring the fact that Pentax was doing exactly what they suggested and that was what was sinking the company.
History repeats.

Well, indeed. Just working through the logic, and it underscores my previous point, in that I don’t expect a successor to the K-70, at least any time soon.

Where it all may go if the long-mooted hybrid viewfinder ever sees the light of day on a production camera is anyone’s guess.

I am reminded by another thread that there have been Pentax-branded cameras with EVFs, albeit bridge cameras which I have a sneaking suspicion were rebadged from some other maker, but that may be my memory playing tricks on me.

Not that I care all that much, settling as I do into my comfort zone, armed with a K-1 and K-3iii, although part of me wants the brand to continue. Not just the part that wants to preserve my investment in Pentax gear, either.

[PentaxScott]

The parallel question is: how quickly is the low end market drying up? In terms of unit sales, it’s been the largest component of the camera market, so I imagine it’s shrinking at a greater rate than the market as a whole.

This is exactly the point where I believe that an upgrade to the K-70 is unlikely.

Pentax however does painfully need to introduce something between the K-70 at ~$700 regular cost, and the K-3III at $2000, and IMO long before a K-1 mkIII. The K-70 can stay on the market so long as pentax is making enough of a profit to make it worthwhile until that segment of the market disappears entirely (its getting there). In the meantime, I suspect that we may see something along the lines of a KP mkII with the following changes:

Latest 24mp sensor
7 FPS, with a buffer increased to handle ~15-21 images (2-3 sec worth of burst...more than the KP up to a buffer similar to K-3 III. More than that would cannibalize K-3 III sales)
Eye Tracking
SAFOX 11+...same 27 selectable AF points as the KP, with an additional number of unselectable points bringing the total to around ~60. Think K-3III yet slimmed down.
Same standard pentaprism (not the one in the K-3III).
Built in Flash, GPS, etc. No Astrotracer 3 mode.
Some level of articulating screen.
$1199-$1399 ($1399 being more likely).

This will give 3 APSC models, rather equally spaced in pricing, with differentiating features that dont cannibalize the other models. This continues until the "intro" market as completely evaporated in which the K-70 will be canned. In 2023/24, I can see Pentax doing a K-1 III that takes refined elements of the K-3 III and putting them into play. The K-1 II would still be sold and this would leave Pentax with a 4 body lineup - 2 APSC and 2 FF.

Just my 2 cents...

[reh321]

This is exactly the point where I believe that an upgrade to the K-70 is unlikely.

Pentax however does painfully need to introduce something between the K-70 at ~$700 regular cost, and the K-3III at $2000, and IMO long before a K-1 mkIII. The K-70 can stay on the market so long as pentax is making enough of a profit to make it worthwhile until that segment of the market disappears entirely (its getting there). In the meantime, I suspect that we may see something along the lines of a KP mkII with the following changes:

Latest 24mp sensor
7 FPS, with a buffer increased to handle ~15-21 images (2-3 sec worth of burst...more than the KP up to a buffer similar to K-3 III. More than that would cannibalize K-3 III sales)
Eye Tracking
SAFOX 11+...same 27 selectable AF points as the KP, with an additional number of unselectable points bringing the total to around ~60. Think K-3III yet slimmed down.
Same standard pentaprism (not the one in the K-3III).
Built in Flash, GPS, etc. No Astrotracer 3 mode.
Some level of articulating screen.
$1199-$1399 ($1399 being more likely).

This will give 3 APSC models, rather equally spaced in pricing, with differentiating features that dont cannibalize the other models. This continues until the "intro" market as completely evaporated in which the K-70 will be canned. In 2023/24, I can see Pentax doing a K-1 III that takes refined elements of the K-3 III and putting them into play. The K-1 II would still be sold and this would leave Pentax with a 4 body lineup - 2 APSC and 2 FF.

Just my 2 cents...

I agree.

Pentax does need an option less expensive than the K-3iii.

From my viewpoint, modifying the K-70 is the least expensive way to get there, and I really don’t care about the details; I cannot imagine how anything based on the K-70 could “cannibalize” K-3iii sales.

I merely suggested how such a camera could appeal to me. I never expected to start a long discussion - that was never my goal or expectation.

[normhead]

I agree.

Pentax does need an option less expensive than the K-3iii.

From my viewpoint, modifying the K-70 is the least expensive way to get there, and I really don’t care about the details; I cannot imagine how anything based on the K-70 could “cannibalize” K-3iii sales.

I merely suggested how such a camera could appeal to me. I never expected to start a long discussion - that was never my goal or expectation.

Are the parts that go into the K-70 even still available? Any functional camera with a tilting back screen will cannibalize sales from the K-3iii. Of course, in my case, they are unlikely to ever have a K-3iii sale in the first place, so it's not really cannibalizing. More like providing a camera I'll enjoy using.

[reh321]

Are the parts that go into the K-70 even still available? Any functional camera with a tilting back screen will cannibalize sales from the K-3iii. Of course, in my case, they are unlikely to ever have a K-3iii sale in the first place, so it's not really cannibalizing. More like providing a camera I'll enjoy using.

I still remember the complaints about the KP {which does have a tilting LCD} from K-3ii users

1. It doesn’t have a top LCD - neither would the K-90.

2. the KP buffer is too small - there is no reason to expect the K-90 to have a larger one

3. It’s battery is too small - I am pleased that the KP and K-30 use the same battery, and there is no reason to expect the K-90 to use another one.

4. In addition, I purchased the KP to get away from the K-n0 build quality. The KP is more like a K-1 or K-3. I would expect the K-90 to continue the K-n0 build quality. I might purchase anyway now, but I would expect a K-3 owner to avoid it.

5. The K-90 would not have a battery grip.

In short, I would be shocked if any K-3 owner would purchase a K-90 instead of a K-3iii.

[Webstormer]

As far as entry level. Pentax cannot compete on price. You can get a canon t7 with the 18-55 and 50-300 for $600.

The k70 seems to have more features (weather sealing being the most obvious). It is also at a higher price point. The challenges is getting the message to the consumer that there is value.

But the canon T7 is way Flimsier!

[reh321]

As far as entry level. Pentax cannot compete on price. You can get a canon t7 with the 18-55 and 50-300 for $600.

The k70 seems to have more features (weather sealing being the most obvious). It is also at a higher price point. The challenges is getting the message to the consumer that there is value.

At one time Canon Rebels were named “Tn” if the LCD was fixed, while “Tni” was the same body with an articulated LED.
Is that still true??
I’ve seen T8 and T8i cameras, so wouldn’t the T8i be a better comparison?

Besides, Pentax is no longer a a participant in the ‘race to the cheapest camera’.