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04-11-2022, 05:48 AM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Initial_DT Quote
I’m in agreement with you that Pentax shouldn’t try to push out a mirrorless by this point, given that it has missed the boat long ago.

My beef with Pentax rather, is that they are trying too hard to come out with new products catching us with gimmicks, when they should be trying to come out with good solid products instead.

Sony has won the camera market mainly with the E mount, despite not having many lenses to begin with, the adaptability to almost all lenses imaginable helped it gain market share.

Likewise, Pentax could play its strength in its excellent optics, modelling itself after Sigma creating lenses for different mounts, or better yet, creating autofocus adapters with various makes of mirrorless cameras making these cameras essentially a Pentax.

Unlike Sony which is defined by its top of the line electronics, Pentax is defined by its history of optical excellence and should have focused on making optics; when it outsourced to Tamron, it made the brand a shell of its former self reducing the meaning of Pentax lenses to rebranded OEMs.
I think you overestimate the appeal of Pentax lenses without a Pentax body to go with them. Would Nikon users really buy a DA limited in a Z mount? I doubt it -- if so, only if it is significantly discounted in relation to native F mount lenses. The DFA *50, which by all accounts is a top end lens, was licensed to Tokina or maybe Pentax even makes it for Tokina. Regardless, the Tokina 50mm Opera doesn't seem to be a big seller or to have moved the bottom line at all for Pentax. It is notable that Tokina hasn't licensed the Pentax DFA *85, even though this is a similar type lens.

Comparing Pentax to Sony is not helpful. Sony made lots and lots of cameras until something finally stuck. They had SLRs and bad EVF cameras and SLTs. Yes, they eventually came up with a set of e mount cameras that have done quite well, but if Pentax followed this path, it mean disaster for the company. They don't have the money to burn that Sony did.

04-11-2022, 06:08 AM - 1 Like   #107
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It is a little sad that Pentax discontinued KP.
For me it had the perfect mix between features, build quality, performance and price.
04-11-2022, 06:15 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Initial_DT Quote
I’m in agreement with you that Pentax shouldn’t try to push out a mirrorless by this point, given that it has missed the boat long ago.

My beef with Pentax rather, is that they are trying too hard to come out with new products catching us with gimmicks, when they should be trying to come out with good solid products instead.

Sony has won the camera market mainly with the E mount, despite not having many lenses to begin with, the adaptability to almost all lenses imaginable helped it gain market share.

Likewise, Pentax could play its strength in its excellent optics, modelling itself after Sigma creating lenses for different mounts, or better yet, creating autofocus adapters with various makes of mirrorless cameras making these cameras essentially a Pentax.

Unlike Sony which is defined by its top of the line electronics, Pentax is defined by its history of optical excellence and should have focused on making optics; when it outsourced to Tamron, it made the brand a shell of its former self reducing the meaning of Pentax lenses to rebranded OEMs.
How are the K-1, K-3, etc “gimmicks”?

I do photograph, and my Pentax KP is a great photographic tool, truly a “solid product”.
I use it just as I used my “Super Program” in the 1980’s.

Last edited by texandrews; 04-11-2022 at 06:57 AM. Reason: Inflammatory content trimmed
04-11-2022, 07:26 AM   #109
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For starters, I never suggested for Pentax to compete with Sony in developing cameras. Right now regardless whether you buy from Sony, Nikon, Fuji(?), or Pentax, you still end up using a Sony sensor; and Sony keeps the best technologies to itself to ensure it retains its competitive edge. There is no way that
Pentax can win playing Sony’s game.

Rather, I am suggesting that Pentax focus on what it does best, making its best lenses available to other brands but not as OEM but rather keeping the Pentax brand name exposing it to non Pentaxians.

The beauty of the mirrorless camera is that it provides a common platform to compare optics from different makes. I have owned and tried at least a hundred lenses from over half a dozen makes, the colour rendition, saturation, tone, and shadow handling glass from different brands all have their signature look; IMHO Pentax glass has some of the most aesthetically pleasing renderings, unlike Sigma, which focuses mainly on charts and sharpness. To say judge a lens strictly by its sharpness is like judging wine strictly by its alcohol content.

I’m calling outsourcing to Tamron a bad business move not because Tamron makes bad lenses, in fact Tamron makes some amazing optics. But by relying on a third party you are even losing more of that brand identity/ uniqueness giving away its own competitive edge, in the world of business it is not about just good products but rather a certain feature that makes the brand unique which gives it value. Pentax will never be able to complete in electronics, between the OVF pentaprism and good optics which creates that unique Pentax look, which do you think is the bigger selling point?

I just ordered the LA-KE1 to pair with my A9ii, essentially making my own Pentax camera. Looking forward to some quality time playing with Pentax glass. Hoping all goes well.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think you overestimate the appeal of Pentax lenses without a Pentax body to go with them. Would Nikon users really buy a DA limited in a Z mount? I doubt it -- if so, only if it is significantly discounted in relation to native F mount lenses. The DFA *50, which by all accounts is a top end lens, was licensed to Tokina or maybe Pentax even makes it for Tokina. Regardless, the Tokina 50mm Opera doesn't seem to be a big seller or to have moved the bottom line at all for Pentax. It is notable that Tokina hasn't licensed the Pentax DFA *85, even though this is a similar type lens.

Comparing Pentax to Sony is not helpful. Sony made lots and lots of cameras until something finally stuck. They had SLRs and bad EVF cameras and SLTs. Yes, they eventually came up with a set of e mount cameras that have done quite well, but if Pentax followed this path, it mean disaster for the company. They don't have the money to burn that Sony did.


---------- Post added 04-11-22 at 11:00 PM ----------

The K-1 and K-3 are nice cameras that came years too late to be deemed competitive. It is like getting sold a 5th generation i7 when everybody else is already using 9th gen CPU.

When I mentioned gimmicks, I’m referring to releases of camera bodies that seemed more designed as fashion assessories than photographic tools, such as when cameras like the k-x are released in no less than a dozen assorted colours, or the excuse of mirrorless camera the boxed shaped K-01 that was essentially a stripped down version of the K5 with ergonomics designed by a furniture designer.

In the attempts, I’ll admit there were a few keepers. I have seen the KP in reviews and might have bought one if I didn’t already own the K3 which I literally bought just weeks after its release.

In retrospect, I think Pentax knew that it was lagging behind the tech race and was trying to do something different creating a niche market that nobody else has tapped. But boy were they some major flops that wasted valuable resources doing little good for the brand image.

I couldn’t believe it when I heard the Pentax new chairman giving that speech about pentaprism as if it was the best thing since slice bread. Brand history is good as it gives credibility, but all that I want is sentimentality, I can just get anything from the used store.

K10D would be a relevant product because CCD has superior colour reproduction compared to Bayer sensors even though it does not win in high resolution or ISO performance. Which goes back to the same point: if you can’t complete in one area, switch to a different area that you excel in. Unfortunately that seems like something which Ricoh Pentax doesn’t seem to be doing. Aside from just focusing to be different, it’s also important to be relevant.

Regardless of my opinions, I hope the brand can remain relevant and be around for years to come providing excellent gears for future photographers. If not, at least I will still have fond memories and a collection of great lens to pass onto my kids.



QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
How are the K-1, K-3, etc “gimmicks”?

I do photograph, and my Pentax KP is a great photographic tool, truly a “solid product”.
I use it just as I used my “Super Program” in the 1980’s.



Last edited by Initial_DT; 04-11-2022 at 08:18 AM.
04-11-2022, 08:54 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Initial_DT Quote
For starters, I never suggested for Pentax to compete with Sony in developing cameras. Right now regardless whether you buy from Sony, Nikon, Fuji(?), or Pentax, you still end up using a Sony sensor; and Sony keeps the best technologies to itself to ensure it retains its competitive edge. There is no way that
Pentax can win playing Sony’s game.

Rather, I am suggesting that Pentax focus on what it does best, making its best lenses available to other brands but not as OEM but rather keeping the Pentax brand name exposing it to non Pentaxians.

The beauty of the mirrorless camera is that it provides a common platform to compare optics from different makes. I have owned and tried at least a hundred lenses from over half a dozen makes, the colour rendition, saturation, tone, and shadow handling glass from different brands all have their signature look; IMHO Pentax glass has some of the most aesthetically pleasing renderings, unlike Sigma, which focuses mainly on charts and sharpness. To say judge a lens strictly by its sharpness is like judging wine strictly by its alcohol content.

I’m calling outsourcing to Tamron a bad business move not because Tamron makes bad lenses, in fact Tamron makes some amazing optics. But by relying on a third party you are even losing more of that brand identity/ uniqueness giving away its own competitive edge, in the world of business it is not about just good products but rather a certain feature that makes the brand unique which gives it value. Pentax will never be able to complete in electronics, between the OVF pentaprism and good optics which creates that unique Pentax look, which do you think is the bigger selling point?

I just ordered the LA-KE1 to pair with my A9ii, essentially making my own Pentax camera. Looking forward to some quality time playing with Pentax glass. Hoping all goes well.



---------- Post added 04-11-22 at 11:00 PM ----------

The K-1 and K-3 are nice cameras that came years too late to be deemed competitive. It is like getting sold a 5th generation i7 when everybody else is already using 9th gen CPU.

When I mentioned gimmicks, I’m referring to releases of camera bodies that seemed more designed as fashion assessories than photographic tools, such as when cameras like the k-x are released in no less than a dozen assorted colours, or the excuse of mirrorless camera the boxed shaped K-01 that was essentially a stripped down version of the K5 with ergonomics designed by a furniture designer.

In the attempts, I’ll admit there were a few keepers. I have seen the KP in reviews and might have bought one if I didn’t already own the K3 which I literally bought just weeks after its release.

In retrospect, I think Pentax knew that it was lagging behind the tech race and was trying to do something different creating a niche market that nobody else has tapped. But boy were they some major flops that wasted valuable resources doing little good for the brand image.

I couldn’t believe it when I heard the Pentax new chairman giving that speech about pentaprism as if it was the best thing since slice bread. Brand history is good as it gives credibility, but all that I want is sentimentality, I can just get anything from the used store.

K10D would be a relevant product because CCD has superior colour reproduction compared to Bayer sensors even though it does not win in high resolution or ISO performance. Which goes back to the same point: if you can’t complete in one area, switch to a different area that you excel in. Unfortunately that seems like something which Ricoh Pentax doesn’t seem to be doing. Aside from just focusing to be different, it’s also important to be relevant.

Regardless of my opinions, I hope the brand can remain relevant and be around for years to come providing excellent gears for future photographers. If not, at least I will still have fond memories and a collection of great lens to pass onto my kids.
In actuality, the closest relative to the K-01 is the K-30, not the K-3.

I am not familiar with the Japanese market, so I’m not certain that Pentax meets even your definition of “gimmick”.
The Japanese are said to be great collectors, and what you call “gimmicks” seem to address that {very real} market.

I logged onto the B&H site just now. When I listed camera bodies by sales, Canon is ahead of Sony when you count the top ten, regardless of whether you count only bodies or bodies + kits; from your description, I thought Sony had received a trophy and all the others had quit selling.

The question of this thread is how low the Pentax line will go feature/price-wise.
You seem to focus on the top of the line, where I tend to not go.
The K-70 seems to be OK now; I had expected the KP to be my last camera,
but I am now open to a K-90 if the features are enough of an improvement and the price is reasonable.

Last edited by reh321; 04-11-2022 at 09:05 AM.
04-11-2022, 10:27 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
In actuality, the closest relative to the K-01 is the K-30, not the K-3.

I am not familiar with the Japanese market, so I’m not certain that Pentax meets even your definition of “gimmick”.
The Japanese are said to be great collectors, and what you call “gimmicks” seem to address that {very real} market.

I logged onto the B&H site just now. When I listed camera bodies by sales, Canon is ahead of Sony when you count the top ten, regardless of whether you count only bodies or bodies + kits; from your description, I thought Sony had received a trophy and all the others had quit selling.

The question of this thread is how low the Pentax line will go feature/price-wise.
You seem to focus on the top of the line, where I tend to not go.
The K-70 seems to be OK now; I had expected the KP to be my last camera,
but I am now open to a K-90 if the features are enough of an improvement and the price is reasonable.
Per the words of another member here:
Pentax used to provide crazy value price proposition. Now they provide crazy value price proposition. Either extremes of the spectrum cannot be good for business in the long run, hopefully management will figure out a happy medium sooner rather than later.
04-11-2022, 10:48 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
It is a little sad that Pentax discontinued KP.
For me it had the perfect mix between features, build quality, performance and price.
I agree, Pentax should have kept the KP in production, alongside the K70 and K3 mk.III, and solved the mid-range aps-c model problem, or kept it solved! They could have even pushed the price upward by a few hundred dollars and some people - like me - would have chosen the KP with battery grip- over the K3 III - once I found out there was no flippy screen, no great video, or big buffer Of course, they did a move like this before, discontinuing the K3 mk.II years before having a replacement. Fortunately, I hedged my bets while waiting for a Pentax FF (having much Nikon glass leftover from the my days) and branched out over to Nikon, although I would have much preferred the Pentax K1 that came later...


Last edited by mtgmansf; 04-11-2022 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Correction...
04-11-2022, 12:25 PM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Initial_DT Quote
Per the words of another member here:
Pentax used to provide crazy value price proposition. Now they provide crazy value price proposition. Either extremes of the spectrum cannot be good for business in the long run, hopefully management will figure out a happy medium sooner rather than later.
What I would say specifically to your concerns about value is that you seem to be making a case based on a single camera, the latest release, the K3mkIII. I think this tends to invalidate your global argument. What we know about that camera is that Pentax put a very great deal of work into it, and not just with the pentaprism, although that alone was a leap forward. You may feel that there isn't much use for such an innovation; OVF lovers will beg to differ. The camera also included some other moves forward for Pentax---video, AF to mention a couple---and these were indeed "catch up" features, but ones Pentax had to make and which cost them money. So, trying to recover some of these costs doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Furthermore, it's not appropriate to compare Pentax's small production numbers (and hence higher per unit costs) with ones from Sony and Canon with their much larger manufacturing capabilities. I also don't think the CPU comparison is entirely appropriate. Finally, we've got covid and worldwide inflation.

With respect to what CEO's say, I'd rather have what the Pentax CEO said to us than what the Fuji CEO recently said to its imaging customers. Also, the Pentax CEO was playing to the house, which is the odd bunch of us who call ourselves Pentaxians who tend to like things like the Limited lens line, OVF's, & etc.
04-11-2022, 03:18 PM   #114
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Change in leadership will always raise concerns regarding future directions of the company. Admittedly, the new Pentax CEO is much more relatable compared to that of Fuji.

Fuji and Pentax are similar in that both are heavily dependent (hence limited) on sensor and processor technologies sold to them by suppliers/ competitors, that neither one can consider themselves leaders in sports action or low light photography; each needed to find their niche playing to their best areas of strengths.

Fuji has greater control to its brand direction because the business was more diversified covering sectors such as medical x-rays meanwhile the Pentax brand has been sold off to different owners like a child going through foster homes; to add insult to injury, Ricoh is itself also a camera brand, meaning that Pentax under Ricoh needs to be careful not to compete directly against Ricoh products.

In short, Pentax has had many challenges stacked against it. The fact that it is still around is nothing short of a miracle. In hindsight, some unpopular decisions may have been unavoidable with few options to choose from.

QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
What I would say specifically to your concerns about value is that you seem to be making a case based on a single camera, the latest release, the K3mkIII. I think this tends to invalidate your global argument. What we know about that camera is that Pentax put a very great deal of work into it, and not just with the pentaprism, although that alone was a leap forward. You may feel that there isn't much use for such an innovation; OVF lovers will beg to differ. The camera also included some other moves forward for Pentax---video, AF to mention a couple---and these were indeed "catch up" features, but ones Pentax had to make and which cost them money. So, trying to recover some of these costs doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Furthermore, it's not appropriate to compare Pentax's small production numbers (and hence higher per unit costs) with ones from Sony and Canon with their much larger manufacturing capabilities. I also don't think the CPU comparison is entirely appropriate. Finally, we've got covid and worldwide inflation.

With respect to what CEO's say, I'd rather have what the Pentax CEO said to us than what the Fuji CEO recently said to its imaging customers. Also, the Pentax CEO was playing to the house, which is the odd bunch of us who call ourselves Pentaxians who tend to like things like the Limited lens line, OVF's, & etc.
04-12-2022, 03:10 AM - 2 Likes   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by Initial_DT Quote
Per the words of another member here:
Pentax used to provide crazy value price proposition. Now they provide crazy value price proposition. Either extremes of the spectrum cannot be good for business in the long run, hopefully management will figure out a happy medium sooner rather than later.
I think all of the brands are moving upscale now. Cheap models are really old models and are limited with regards to features. The days when you could buy a camera plus a lens for 500 dollars are clearly numbered.

Pentax continues to have lenses and camera bodies that are decently priced. If you compare their 24-70 or 70-200 f2.8 lenses to Nikon Z mount lenses you'll find a significant difference in pricing. The K-1 II with grip is 1800 dollars which feels quite reasonably priced. The DA limiteds and consumer zooms are decently priced too.

I do expect new lenses and bodies to be more expensive than in the past, but that doesn't mean that there aren't good deals to be had. Focusing on the DFA * primes or the K-3 III gives a false idea of how most people put together a K mount kit.
04-12-2022, 06:13 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think all of the brands are moving upscale now. Cheap models are really old models and are limited with regards to features. The days when you could buy a camera plus a lens for 500 dollars are clearly numbered.
Correct, and have been for some time. Perfectly logical: the $500 camera/lens combo wasn't ever an appealing choice for enthusiasts or serious amateurs, and not a choice at all for pros. Now that phones are so capable and do most of what a person needs(and then some) who would want a low priced camera, there's little need for them. So, not only have phones wiped out P&S cameras, they've hit the bottom of the ILC market as well. And I think the more folks get used to using their phones for their daily image needs (like the Marco Polo video my daughter in Austria just sent me of my grandson), they will be less interested in ILC's.

QuoteQuote:
Pentax continues to have lenses and camera bodies that are decently priced. If you compare their 24-70 or 70-200 f2.8 lenses to Nikon Z mount lenses you'll find a significant difference in pricing. The K-1 II with grip is 1800 dollars which feels quite reasonably priced. The DA limiteds and consumer zooms are decently priced too.

I do expect new lenses and bodies to be more expensive than in the past, but that doesn't mean that there aren't good deals to be had. Focusing on the DFA * primes or the K-3 III gives a false idea of how most people put together a K mount kit.
Agreed. Pentax remains a good value.
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