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12-22-2008, 11:06 AM   #1
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double (or more) exposure on the same frame?

is there such a feature?

i was flipping through my MZ-S manual the other day and turns out i can expose the same frame (atleast twice, and i think infinetly IIRC)

intresting to know why our digital cameras dont have such a feature (unless i missed it somewhere in the manual)

12-22-2008, 11:55 AM   #2
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You mean like multiple exposure? The k10d can take 2 to 9 multiple exposures, quite an useful, easy, HDR method!
12-22-2008, 11:58 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shaloot! Quote
You mean like multiple exposure? The k10d can take 2 to 9 multiple exposures, quite an useful, easy, HDR method!
no, same frame, multiple exposure

ie, you re-shoot the same frame however times you want for however long you want.

once the snow melts i got some seriously creative photoshoots i want to do with my film camera
12-22-2008, 12:00 PM   #4
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Both the K10D and K20D have this feature.

On the K20D the multiple exposure selector is in the menu under the Extended bracket feature on the first menu in Rec. Mode.

Yet another reason to stick with Pentax - easy schmeesy. I can not comment on the K200D or K2000D as I do not have them, nor do I plan to get one. The K200xD people should chime in.

The Elitist, formerly known as PDL

Edit: I know of no feature to allow you to make multiple exposures on any digital camera after the image has been stored on the media. Even back in the days of film and 35mm SLR's this would not be a simple task. Registration of the objects in the image is the difficult part.

I have done this before, but with an intervolometer, large heavy tripod, controlled light source (color temp) on super 8mm Kodachrome. I did do some image overlays (what it appears that you are trying to do) with 35mm images. I took pains to use prime lenses (don't have to worry about getting the focal length the same over long periods of time), shot at the same time of day (hopeing that the sun was either up or not), I put targets down for later use to register the images for overlay (to get the objects in the same place) and marked the tripod settings (height, leg positions, leg extensions and head angles) to make it all repeatable. In the darkroom I would either stack the negatives (if everything worked out with the dimensions) or I would set up the "final" print with the targets to get the images to overlay.

Took a lot of work - with digital it should be easier - but, still a lot of work. I would suggest a very steady tripod that would not move during the duration of the shoot. Use a standard f/stop for consistent DOF from image to image, a prime lens so the focal length does not vary. Place targets for position and color balance at the edge of the frame and possibly carry a artificial target for focus - so you get repeatability.

Not an easy thing to do, but possible.


Last edited by PDL; 12-22-2008 at 12:18 PM. Reason: gooshin posted his real question.
12-22-2008, 01:05 PM   #5
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I believe you can overlay one digital photo on another using layers in post-processing, but I don't know the specifics. I believe it's possible because someone I know did this with two photos of geese in rising from a pond. He combined the pictures so the sky was more dense with geese.
12-22-2008, 02:32 PM   #6
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It works even better on the K10D than on film IMO.

There's a setting for whether or not the camera automatically averages the light value of the multiple exposures. If turned on, you can snap multiple frames on top of each other without having to worry about coming out with a hopelessly overexposed image.
12-22-2008, 02:53 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Both the K10D and K20D have this feature.

On the K20D the multiple exposure selector is in the menu under the Extended bracket feature on the first menu in Rec. Mode.

Yet another reason to stick with Pentax - easy schmeesy.

Yes, one more wonderful Pentax feature, that is hard to find in another DSLR...

QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Edit: I know of no feature to allow you to make multiple exposures on any digital camera after the image has been stored on the media. Even back in the days of film and 35mm SLR's this would not be a simple task. Registration of the objects in the image is the difficult part.
The LX was (is) wonderful in this respect as the frame counter counts into both directions. So could get to an earlier image on the same film easily and with quite good (but not perfect) registration. Only that any frame exposed properly in the first instance would make a poor base for a secondary exposure...

Prof. Harald Mante ( a noted German photographer and lecturer in the art of photography) published a wonderfull book with double exposures: He and his wife each filled a roll of film in theri cameras, while walking into opposite directions around an old palace. Halfway they met and exchanged the cameras and exposing the film of eacher other again. Very dreamy and intersting pictures indeed...

So double exposures can be very compelling, because they have some unplanned charcter - quite different from elaborate post-processing.

Ben
12-22-2008, 04:57 PM   #8
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the only program in K10d/K20d's multiple exposure is that it needs to use the menu instead of a button to start it.

12-22-2008, 06:36 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
is there such a feature?

i was flipping through my MZ-S manual the other day and turns out i can expose the same frame (atleast twice, and i think infinetly IIRC)

intresting to know why our digital cameras dont have such a feature (unless i missed it somewhere in the manual)
Yes the MZ-S can take multiple exposures on a single frame. The reason for doing this is to perform trick photography (mostly) and save oneself the trouble of lining up negatives when enlarging. This is how I did the attached photograph. The moon (photographed through a beautiful Questar and positioned just right) and the water (photographed through a 200mm less and positioned just right) were added as a multiple exposure, then the person (actually a underexposed daytime photo) was added under the enlarger... so, actually I used both methods in this example. Anyhow, if I re-did this photo now, using Photoshop, I could do a much better job. BTW, I know the moon is inverted (telescope view) but I made an artistic decision to leave it that way; the print seemed to look better like this.

But why on earth would you want to do this on a digital camera? With Photoshop (or any animal of your choosing) simulating multiple exposure work is easy-smeasy! Okay, I suppose some of the 'grunt work / glamour' is lost but the results are often better and certainly faster. Better is a certainty in the sense that you can churn out unlimited copies. Film based multiple exposure work is usually going to be one of a kind. All subsequent copies are simple copies of the original.

Finally, there is a purely technical reason why you 'cannot' make multiple exposures on a digital camera. The light sensor (CCD or CMOS) does not retain an 'image' from exposure to exposure. Once the image is captured, it is then written to an electronic file. Theoretically, camera software could be designed to append the next captured image to the last picture file (append all images prior to writing the picture file (RAW or JPG)); but why? As mentioned earlier, the is the purpose of Photoshop.

Attached Images
 

Last edited by pentaxmz; 12-22-2008 at 07:03 PM.
12-22-2008, 06:51 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I believe you can overlay one digital photo on another using layers in post-processing, but I don't know the specifics. I believe it's possible because someone I know did this with two photos of geese in rising from a pond. He combined the pictures so the sky was more dense with geese.
Not just overlays. One can also copy/paste from as many other images as one desires.

Digitally, one can do anything that one can imagine. Similar is/was true of film photography, only it took a lot longer and was subject to cursing when all the carefully lined up negatives (or positives) shifted in their carrier. I DO NOT miss those days (or do I?).
12-22-2008, 06:52 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kirivon Quote
It works even better on the K10D than on film IMO.

There's a setting for whether or not the camera automatically averages the light value of the multiple exposures. If turned on, you can snap multiple frames on top of each other without having to worry about coming out with a hopelessly overexposed image.
What setting is this? I have a K20D but I am sure there is no such setting on either camera.

EDIT: Well, I must say... I was totally surprised to find this feature on the K20D. It is under REC mode menu, Multiple exposures (you set the number of multiple exposures and whether or not averaging should be done). Now, it's that cool! :-)

Still, I think I would rather do multiple exposure work from Photoshop.... but it's there after all. Can anyone confirm if this is unique to certain Pentax cameras or is this available on other cameras as well? This is the first time I have seen this feature on a digital camera.

Last edited by pentaxmz; 12-22-2008 at 07:01 PM.
12-22-2008, 08:31 PM   #12
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reason for wanting it on digital

is that its one thing to burn two sets of information on to a single frame (assuming you split your exposures right)

and another thing to have two digital images and trying to fuse them together with the point of information subtraction, not addition.


for instance, take one frame at 2 seconds exposure to get a blurry background, then stick on a -5 or -10 stop ND filter, and use flash to photograph someone on to the same photo

with digital, having two photos would lead me to having one photo with lots of black, which means i have to use the lasoo tool to de-select the black, and various opacity sliders and merge the two photos together

even though i mentioned in another thread that digital manipulation is OK in my books, as funny as it is, i never bothered to teach myself the intrececies of photoshop, nor do i really want to at this point, since i'm not a magazine editor.

just another tool really, so i wanted to know if ti was possible on digital as well.
12-22-2008, 10:01 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
What setting is this? I have a K20D but I am sure there is no such setting on either camera.

EDIT: Well, I must say... I was totally surprised to find this feature on the K20D. It is under REC mode menu, Multiple exposures (you set the number of multiple exposures and whether or not averaging should be done). Now, it's that cool! :-)

Still, I think I would rather do multiple exposure work from Photoshop.... but it's there after all. Can anyone confirm if this is unique to certain Pentax cameras or is this available on other cameras as well? This is the first time I have seen this feature on a digital camera.
Post-processing *cannot* give you what averaging multiple exposures does. If you want that silky smooth waterfall shot then you must use long exposures and the averaging method makes this a cakewalk. You cannot replicate that look by stacking images. Mind you, if you just want to use the old additive stacking method, then fill your boots by turning averaging off and it is just like your and my old LX...only better.

Jack
12-22-2008, 11:48 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
Post-processing *cannot* give you what averaging multiple exposures does. If you want that silky smooth waterfall shot then you must use long exposures and the averaging method makes this a cakewalk. You cannot replicate that look by stacking images. Mind you, if you just want to use the old additive stacking method, then fill your boots by turning averaging off and it is just like your and my old LX...only better.

Jack
Hi Jack,

I do not understand your waterfall analogy. Unless I am mistaken, 'silky smooth' waterfalls are the product of a single long exposure (e.g. 1/8 sec - 1 sec or so...). What does a waterfall have to do with multiple exposures?

Please understand that I am not correcting or criticizing you, I am just curious that you may be describing a technique that I have never tried.
12-23-2008, 12:02 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
Hi Jack,

I do not understand your waterfall analogy. Unless I am mistaken, 'silky smooth' waterfalls are the product of a single long exposure (e.g. 1/8 sec - 1 sec or so...). What does a waterfall have to do with multiple exposures?

Please understand that I am not correcting or criticizing you, I am just curious that you may be describing a technique that I have never tried.
The beauty of the averaging mode is that it still records all bits from all images in the series but instead of stacking all the exposures on top of each other and potentially blowing everything out, it averages out the total exposure to something that fits its given exposure settings. So next time you are at a waterfall, do the test for yourself:

1) A single long exposure as you normally would in non-averaging mode.

2) A series of multiple exposures divided into 9 separate exposures (time in Step 1 divided by 9) taken in non-averaging mode (good old stacking mode).

3) As in Step 2 but in averaging mode.

This should give you a feel for its strengths and weaknesses. You can adjust the number of multiple exposures from 2 to 9 images in the K10 and K20.

Jack
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