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11-30-2022, 02:14 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by CristiC Quote
What definitely will happen is this: people will be walking around with augmented reality glasses, 2027-ish, much the same way as people walk around with smartphones today. Augmented reality (AR) will replace the pentaprism and the EVF. Computation will happen in a second wearable device that feeds content to the AR glasses. Yet another device can be hand-held and will feature a sensor and interchangeable lenses, but it will lack buttons and controls. The whole system will be gesture-controlled. While one hand is holding the sensor/lens unit, the other hand will control a virtual panel, generated by the computational unit and displayed by the AR glasses. This will be possible with a new kind of energy storage (high energy-density) batteries, both powerful and portable, in conjunction with the immense computational power that will need much less energy than today. Moore's Law is still alive and going strong. I know that. I also know the forecast on this topic.

Just look at the energy efficiency and size of EyeQ chips produced by the company Mobileye for automated driving vehicles today, compared to devices/systems used by others, basically power-hungry computers on wheels. If automated driving, based on vision (optics), which is a reality today, can happen within the power envelope demonstrated by Mobileye, then I'm sure that computational photography, based on AR and ubiquitous portable computing devices, will definitely happen soon. Cameras will need even fewer parts than today's DSLRs. The user interface will be virtual, defined by software, controlled by gesture, displayed by AR glasses - that will happen anyway, for other reasons than photography. What parts are then missing from a camera system? Sensor & lenses. BTW, a novel kind of lens design has been researched already, dispensing with the heavy glass. The future is bright!
Our power went out for 13 hours (!) on Thanksgiving Day (leaving a lot of uncooked turkeys in the wake) - anybody depending on that technology is going to be blind as a bat for a while without some significant power backup.

11-30-2022, 05:17 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
My Samsung NX1 bodies make it possible for me to manual focus my classic Pentax lenses - kinda ironic. Yes, modern Pentax bodies has focus peaking too, but the Samsungs were way, way cheaper.
Seems like the NX system hasn't had many recent releases...
11-30-2022, 05:44 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by AstroDave Quote
Our power went out for 13 hours (!) on Thanksgiving Day (leaving a lot of uncooked turkeys in the wake) - anybody depending on that technology is going to be blind as a bat for a while without some significant power backup.
This is a good response to CristiC. To augment this response, what is being portrayed for future "photography" is actually an enhanced P/S system. And indeed very much like "smart" phones of today. It can and does do what P/S does too well- take over our individual control and specific choices, thus ultimately reducing our skills and artistic expression.. Technology can be a good thing in making our control and choices easier to effectuate, but too much tech management of imaging weakens our minds and eventually reduces our own capabilities in taking away control. It can become a crutch, as well as imposing limitations, according to what it "thinks" are the "right" choices, according to what it "thinks" it "sees". All that automatiion can be good for quickly and efficiently producing what we are after under challenging circumstances, but I still very often choose to override the automation (Pentax Hyper System), or to shoot in Manual mode.

---------- Post added 11-30-22 at 06:05 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
1. For the people that do prefer an OVF, but are prepared to move to mirrorless for the size and weight advantages, Pentax should release their own version of the Canon SL1. Small used to be Pentax's thing! Why can't they do it now? Like the SL1 it could largely be a parts bin camera. The two key phrases are small and light. As I said before, Pentax used to be good at the small thing, but not so good at lightweight. But I think they can do it, and I for one would very much like to see that camera.
Well, Pentax DID produce a high-quality DSLR that has compared very favorably with high-quality APS-C mirrorless models in terms of weight and size, when outfitted with comparable lenses. And with superior controls and features. It was named the KP. Unfortunately, this concept has been abandoned by Pentax. Pentax has been lacking in all-important marketing aspects for a long time. The K-S2 is even smaller and lighter, except at its right side with the bulging right-hand grip. As to size and weight, even high-end mirrorless designs that are FF cannot match a good compact 35mm film SLR camera, even one with a top-notch VF and a built-in flash. Digital cameras are inherently heavier than the 35mm film counterparts. Lots more electronics packed into them.

Last edited by mikesbike; 11-30-2022 at 06:06 PM.
11-30-2022, 06:36 PM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
Well, Pentax DID produce a high-quality DSLR that has compared very favorably with high-quality APS-C mirrorless models in terms of weight and size, when outfitted with comparable lenses. And with superior controls and features. It was named the KP. Unfortunately, this concept has been abandoned by Pentax. Pentax has been lacking in all-important marketing aspects for a long time. The K-S2 is even smaller and lighter, except at its right side with the bulging right-hand grip.
I purchased a KP because I didn’t want to contend with solenoid problems again, but Pentax seems to have finally figured that out, so I have high hopes that ‘grandchild of the K-S2’ KF will succeed.

11-30-2022, 06:53 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
It depends entirely on why you photograph. Mostly, I capture my world as it is today before tomorrow comes and everything changes. For that purpose, I did start with a Kodak Instamatic - which was not “horrid” for that purpose - then I got a 110 camera - which was not horrid for that purpose - and now I have a smart phone - which is not horrid for that purpose. I could/can always have some kind of camera with me, and they allowed me to record things without my standing out. True, I cannot isolate the subject from the blackground - but I never do that. Even when I had 50mm F/1.7 lens, I showed the background if I had enough light, because it put the foreground into context. Typically, I have been more interested in ‘stopping motion’ - the reason I got into Pentax in the first place.

Incidentally, I also do not try to eliminate crowds - they are an indication of popularity today …… the reason something is important and a reason to expect it to continue to exist tomorrow.
Apparently, you have a strong interest in photojournalism with plenty of environmental or social context. Nothing wrong with that. That being of utmost importance to you, as reflective of our changing world can be very interesting. I do this kind of thing quite often, including event photography.

For me, however, whether or not within this, examining the individual is also very interesting. Individuality and uniqueness, whether solitary or shown standing out from the environment, is also an important part of reality. But then, I have numerous fascinations, even sometimes macro or semi-macro subject matter, all of which makes this hobby that much more expensive!
11-30-2022, 08:55 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by AfterPentax Mark II Quote
I do not think that the DSLR will survive. The success of the camera without any VF will take care of that. That is the reason the phone manufacturers are improving the camera abilities of it and they call in the help from companies such as Leica. The technical improvements of camera's with phone abilities will be bigger and bigger. Most people want easy and light camera's. The DSLR, bridge camera's or the camera's with EVF are all too big, too heavy and do not fit in a pocket of your suit or jacket. Portability is the credo. Charles Dickens novel "Great Expectations" advised the readers and people in general to have portable properties. And that is the way to go with the camera. No heavy equipment, but a camera that fits in the pocket of something you wear or perhaps in a small (lady's) bag.
I use as a smart phone, but I value being able to see what I am photographing. I use a Hoodman with my Pentax Q-7. I will not predict the end of DSLRs on anything like the success of phones. I remember when I was a Canon user, and we desperately wanted the next MILC from Canon to have an EVF so we could see what we were doing despite the presence of sunlight. Nobody I knew of would sacrifice seeing for fitting the device into a pocket.
12-01-2022, 03:48 AM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by AstroDave Quote
Our power went out for 13 hours (!) on Thanksgiving Day (leaving a lot of uncooked turkeys in the wake) - anybody depending on that technology is going to be blind as a bat for a while without some significant power backup.
I am sorry to hear what happened. As an engineer who is spending both working time and private time in front of monitors, relying on the electric grid, that misfortune happening on that day seems to me like an insult added to injury. My earlier statement was in a completely unrelated matter, regarding mobile wearable devices that are untethered and grid-independent.

I recharge my smartphone once in two days and my camera batteries less than once a week, having a lot of spares. The devices I mentioned need to behave in a similar manner, something that is unavailable today for AR. That is what I meant by the power envelope: future devices will consume much less energy than today, thus batteries will last longer. Besides advances in battery (energy storage) technology I expect much stronger advances in electronic chip design that will need much less power. I am part of that industry and I am writing based on my insider knowledge, not as a science-fiction enthusiast.

12-01-2022, 03:55 AM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
Is there anything you miss about a DLSR Jonathan? OVF, for example?
I do like having an OVF, but I like being able to very quickly and accurately use manual focus lenses more, and no matter how big they are OVFs will never be able to magnify 10x a specific portion for precise focusing.

I miss using a Pentax camera but the only thing I miss about DSLRs per se is the battery life. I don't miss the dodgy AF. I don't miss the gaping holes in the lens line-up or the lenses that stay in production year after year despite having well-known design faults.
12-01-2022, 03:56 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
But the screen size is different, which is more important than you might think.
A laptop with an external mouse and an external screen then . The worst thing about laptops is the effect of viewing angle on display accuracy.

12-01-2022, 04:22 AM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
That seemed to be Mark Zuckerberg's big idea. How's that working out for him?
Des, I am talking about augmented reality (AR), not virtual reality (VR). Very different! Think of helmets for fighter pilots, a military technology that is old enough. Has nothing to do with Zuck's ambitions, he's somewhat ahead of reality and misunderstood by Wall Street, on short term issues. I agree that not many people on this forum have actually seen (in person) that military technology for augmenting capabilities on the battlefield, thus they are not connecting the idea that I conveyed with the existing AR gear that is used by the military. I say that such a mission-constrained tech is perfectly fitting the requirements and ergonomic needs of photographers holding an optical viewfinder to their eye.
12-01-2022, 05:40 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
This is a good response to CristiC. To augment this response, what is being portrayed for future "photography" is actually an enhanced P/S system. And indeed very much like "smart" phones of today. It can and does do what P/S does too well- take over our individual control and specific choices, thus ultimately reducing our skills and artistic expression.. Technology can be a good thing in making our control and choices easier to effectuate, but too much tech management of imaging weakens our minds and eventually reduces our own capabilities in taking away control. It can become a crutch, as well as imposing limitations, according to what it "thinks" are the "right" choices, according to what it "thinks" it "sees". All that automatiion can be good for quickly and efficiently producing what we are after under challenging circumstances, but I still very often choose to override the automation (Pentax Hyper System), or to shoot in Manual mode.
I see that you make assumptions on features and ergonomics that I did not address at all, such as the automation for exposure mode and exposure settings. I did not describe a Point-and-Shoot (P/S) camera. I did not describe the camera app of my smartphone. There is no reason to assume that I want (or any other photographer wants) to relinquish control to a robot that will take the "perfect picture" for me, it just guessing what my artistic intent may be. Far from that.

Your Pentax camera and my Pentax camera(s) (all of them, in past and present) have a mode dial. One setting of that dial is Auto. I haven't used it ever. Not even on the Minolta 4-MegaPixel camera in 2005. I mostly use manual (M) mode and aperture priority (A) mode, the +/- exposure compensation, plus the various settings that influence the result I am aiming for, using the many buttons and dials available. I do like the ergonomics of my Pentax DSLR cameras, much more than I like my Canon cameras and other DSLR brands on my shelves as well. I do hate Sony menus.

Coming back to the augmented reality (AR) system of 3 (three) connected devices, one of which essentially is a powerful computer, there is nothing preventing a very ergonomic user interface (aka dials, buttons, controls) that can include a manual (M) mode, should I wish to control the exposure myself. In analogy to automated driving (passenger) vehicles, I am talking about Level 4 automation, with a driver's seat, pedals and steering wheel, as opposed to the Level 5 automation that doesn't have a driver's seat at all, no steering wheel and no means to influence driving at all.

While complete automation is (and certainly will be) available, the manual mode will stay for sure, as well. The difference enabled by AR is that the buttons and dials will "float in the air" before your eyes and you will "touch" virtual buttons instead of physical buttons. The beauty of it is enabled by software that can be customized to show as much or as little overlay as you wish, similar to the button on your Pentax camera that cycles between several groups of overlayed info that you see on the rear screen in LiveView (LV) mode.
12-01-2022, 04:14 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I will not predict the end of DSLRs on anything like the success of phones.
Neither do I, but the tendency is lighter and more easy equipment. And the mirrorless with EVF is my best bet, because they are awfully good nowadays. But as I am an aged person I still buy DSLR's. My wife and I both used the SFX's and she now favours a mirrorless. Because it is lighter. And it is not so different from the SFX as settings go. But it is small, fits in a little camera bag and is easy to handle, just in difficult situations were she was hampered by the weight of the SFX with the weighty F-lens. But on walks we speak to people about things to make a picture of and they all do it with a phone and they think it's special that I walk around with a big camera with a big lens. (special=strange) On the other hand, people that never took pictures before, do now because of the phone, it is in the package of that machine... Do not go to have the pictures developed, it can be immediately share with anybody. So perhaps the phone is the reason that ends the DSLR, because people are used to light equipment and if they want to improve on the pictures they take, they will look for a camera that is almost as easy to carry around as their phones, I think.
12-01-2022, 04:18 PM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
My Samsung NX1 bodies make it possible for me to manual focus my classic Pentax lenses - kinda ironic. Yes, modern Pentax bodies has focus peaking too, but the Samsungs were way, way cheaper.
Wish I had one!
12-02-2022, 07:53 AM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
My Samsung NX1 bodies make it possible for me to manual focus my classic Pentax lenses
As far as I know any mirrorless ILC will allow for better focus of manual lenses than any DSLR. Maybe some really old ones will have poorer MF tools but the newer ones work very well.
12-02-2022, 03:19 PM - 5 Likes   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by AfterPentax Mark II Quote
So perhaps the phone is the reason that ends the DSLR, because people are used to light equipment and if they want to improve on the pictures they take, they will look for a camera that is almost as easy to carry around as their phones, I think.
My goodness! All this about being lightweight, controls floating before the eyes, etc. When Pentax designed a more svelte DSLR to compare with the svelteness of APS-C mirrorless, so many complained its reduced right-hand grip as not being bulky enough for "good ergonomics"!! Many wanted something of the "right size" to hold in the hand with dedicated controls with good feel and touch. I am the "touchy-feely" type myself, not controls "floating before my eyes" type. For me, the KP has been fine to satisfy this while also being more compact and with high quality. For others, they have made it clear, they wanted something BIGGER, not smaller! Something they can GRIP solidly. So they waited and got it. I do not believe the DSLR is being threatened by phones in any significant way.

There's nothing new about "most people" wanting a smaller, simpler-to-operate camera. This was so way back with film cameras, like the old small-box brownie and later even smaller p/s cameras. "Most people" would shy away from the more expensive big SLR cameras. Today's phones have replaced those p/s cameras of yore, not DSLR cameras. As to "most people" preferring their lightweight phones fitting in their pocket or purse- nothing new.

As to mirrorless, I just received a very nice little catalogue from B&H- "Popular Photo Gear". Lots of cameras and lots of lenses by different brands like Sony, Canon, Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic, and Nikon. All models shown are mirrorless, except a Nikon advertisement on the back which includes their top DSLR, the D850. The D850 is listed for $500 off on special, now "only" $2,500! The top mirrorless Z models are the Z7 II (now $2,600!) and Z9, which has the battery grip built on and is humungous in size. I believe it is even larger than the Pentax K-1 II with its battery grip, and offered at $5,500!! Both of these models apparently use the same sensor as the D850. A while back, someone here posted a video by that "Wha's-up" guy who often runs imaging tests of lenses and cameras, who ran tests of the 45mp Nikon D850 against the 36mp Pentax K-1 II and demonstrated the Pentax model to be capable of superior imaging over the Nikon, beyond a doubt. The Pentax K-1 II is now offered at $1,800 and with a free battery grip and other accessories!!

Prices of models by other makes were really up there also. And the prices of lenses! And the sizes of lenses! Not to forget, what we wind up carrying and holding is a camera and lens combo!

When I saw all that was being presented, did it cause me to drool over all this mirrorless gear? Quite the opposite- it made me appreciate my K-1 II and KP, my fine lenses, as well as my other Pentax and Pentax-related equipment, even more!! And I am very appreciative of the great prices I got it all for!

I think the point made of mirrorless having fewer moving parts and being less expensive to make, therefore bringing in greater profits, is indeed true. This whole shift is about making lots of money.

If Pentax decided to eventually come out with a FF mirrorless model about the size and design of the KP, that could take the DFA and FA lenses, I might even decide to put up with the artificial VF (EVF) instead of the real thing in order to use it (maybe). But I do not feel any shortcoming of performance from my equipment, not even AF performance. It operates just fine for my needs.

I have very rarely used it for video, then only short clips. It was fine for that. I have a video cam for more extensive shooting, and sometimes I am using my DSLR to shoot stills while having my video cam running on a tripod.

Last edited by mikesbike; 12-02-2022 at 03:42 PM.
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