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01-07-2009, 10:56 AM   #61
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Ok, here's the deal from my perspective.
I'm a "professional photographer"
In my neck of the woods, this means I am pretty much a whore with a camera if I am going to make a living.
I work on contract with a local studio.
We shoot weddings during the summer, school photos during the fall, Santa Photos for a few shopping malls during the Christmas season.
This is not easy work.
We also shoot family portraits, and we have a few commercial contracts.
All this conspires to keep the doors open, but none of it is glamorous work.
Whoring.

In order to keep the wolf from my door, I renovate houses to supplement my photography income. Sometimes, the photography supplements the renovating, sometimes it's the other way around.

Just for the record, pulling the leaky toilet flange rotted sub floor out of a bathroom isn't glamorous work either. It is smelly and disgusting work.
But it lets me be a "professional photographer", which is my passion.

When I started doing this, and up until a handful of years ago, brand didn't really matter. Operationally, the difference between a Nikon F2s and a Pentax K1000 is not worth discussing. Both mechanical manual cameras. You can put a tractor drive onto the Nikon if you want to make noise.
It didn't matter what brand of camera we used, they all did about the same thing, and we all had access to the same film brands, so one person could do pretty much the same thing as another person.
The world is no longer that simple. Now, the capabilities of the equipment are more important than they have been in the past. This is a development of the 1980s, when cameras went high tech, and has been continuing on ever since.
The advantage of full frame digital is high ISO performance, along with the possibility of returning to the golden era of good viewfinders.
It doesn't matter what they do to a cropped frame viewfinder, it is still a small image to compose with,.

Calling a crop framed viewfinder good is like saying my dog's breath isn't bad, considering he is a dog.
At least amoung the dogs, Pentax has just about the best dog breath.

So, why should high ISO performance mean squat to me? Because my competition has it and I don't. My competition can walk into a dimly lit church and do hand held available light work that I can only dream about doing.
Why should this matter to me?
It matters because my competition's work now looks better than mine in that situation, and it can cause me to lose sales.
The difference between hamburger for dinner or a nice steak.
So, why don't I just switch over to Nikon full frame then?

As you will find, as time jades your idealism, and you start to see in shades of gray, rather than seeing everything in terms of either/or, that life is a compromise in everything that we do.
I switch from Pentax cropped format to Nikon full frame at a tremendous cost. In order to exchange lenses that I use on a regular basis for equal quality lenses from Nikon would cost me tens of thousands of dollars, and honestly, I don't think it is worth it or possible, even if I could afford it.
I use lenses on a day to day basis that are unmatched for quality from any other manufacturer, and this is a compromise I'm not willing to make.
Sure, I could write the equipment off over several years, but I still have to pay for the stuff up front.
I'd never eat another steak.
So instead, I lobby Pentax to make, if not a full frame camera, at least a camera that has a bigger sensor without an increase in pixel count.

I do this because I know that they can make a better Pentax, and because my work would benefit from a better Pentax, not a full frame Nikon. What I want is equipment driven.
A better skill set from me is not going to help my camera's high ISO performance when compared to a Nikon D3 or D700, any suggestions to the contrary won't make it so.


Last edited by Wheatfield; 01-07-2009 at 11:03 AM.
01-07-2009, 10:58 AM   #62
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Jayzus, Joseph n Mary everybody, This yogi bear gustefson or whatever he goes by is a Fisherman not a Photgrapher!!, he's been luring you al in all the time..
Study his writing fer Gods sake...
I wouldna waste me time with him!!..
Photgrapher me Ace!!!!...
Cheers
01-07-2009, 11:38 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
Always complaining about how many pages you have, instead of being happy that you have two... it is about the art of the forum not about who has the most pages... Have you learned nothing?


Not saying that I am better or anything but... I have four, soon to be five
I have learned nothing! but why do I still have two pages soon to be three? meh.
01-07-2009, 11:48 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
I have learned nothing! but why do I still have two pages soon to be three? meh.
how many posts per page do you have?

01-07-2009, 11:54 AM   #65
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or how many posts do you have? My screen will show this one as #65
01-07-2009, 11:59 AM   #66
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QuoteQuote:
how many posts per page do you have?
I am sitting at 25 posts on page 2, page 1 has 40.

QuoteQuote:
or how many posts do you have? My screen will show this one as #65
I also show 65.
01-07-2009, 12:08 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
I am sitting at 25 posts on page 2, page 1 has 40.



I also show 65.
and so we solve the mystery

you have your CP setup to show 40 posts per page, i have 15/page.
01-07-2009, 12:13 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
and so we solve the mystery

you have your CP setup to show 40 posts per page, i have 15/page.
hell, I wonder when I did that... I don't remember it, nor did I know it was an option until now. oh well mystery solved.

01-07-2009, 12:15 PM   #69
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Just a couple cents of my own...

If you want to really learn about the art of photography, you DO have to know about the equipment. Unless you understand how aperture, shutter speed, focal length, ISO setting, etc etc all affect the outcome of the pictures (DOF, perspective, contrast, noise, etc) you can never master your "true" art of photography. So what does this require? It requires discussion of equipment so that one can choose a lens or camera that will deliver on what artistic or professional qualities you need or desire.

This can even come down to some less than obvious quirks about lenses. The older takumar glass has a certain, difficult to quantify quality about it that is no longer seen with modern lenses. Maybe it's how the coatings have changed, or the optical formulas...I don't really know. Even something like how large the front element is can affect your picture, for example a lens with a large front element is more likely to be more susceptible to lens flare due to the amount of glass exposed. But the point is that the equipment does affect the final photo so it is worth discussing if you really want to understand what you are doing.

Sure, you don't HAVE to worry about all this crap, but it's fun, and you will find the discussion on these forums is certainly very positive. In my experience here so far (which has been a couple months or so), I have noticed hardly any complaints, particularly with regards to pentax not having FF. Sure, there are requests, but no one is complaining like a child about it.

Cheers,
Jim

PS. if you want to be accepted on this forum, please start by showing your true love of photography, and share images, share your thoughts about other peoples photography. Share your opinions about actual equipment, not your naive opinions about the users of this forum. Don't just come barging in expecting people to be accepting of your wide-mouthed criticism with open arms.
01-07-2009, 12:23 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Ok, here's the deal from my perspective.
I'm a "professional photographer"
In my neck of the woods, this means I am pretty much a whore with a camera if I am going to make a living.
I work on contract with a local studio.
We shoot weddings during the summer, school photos during the fall, Santa Photos for a few shopping malls during the Christmas season.
This is not easy work.
We also shoot family portraits, and we have a few commercial contracts.
All this conspires to keep the doors open, but none of it is glamorous work.
Whoring.

In order to keep the wolf from my door, I renovate houses to supplement my photography income. Sometimes, the photography supplements the renovating, sometimes it's the other way around.

Just for the record, pulling the leaky toilet flange rotted sub floor out of a bathroom isn't glamorous work either. It is smelly and disgusting work.
But it lets me be a "professional photographer", which is my passion.

When I started doing this, and up until a handful of years ago, brand didn't really matter. Operationally, the difference between a Nikon F2s and a Pentax K1000 is not worth discussing. Both mechanical manual cameras. You can put a tractor drive onto the Nikon if you want to make noise.
It didn't matter what brand of camera we used, they all did about the same thing, and we all had access to the same film brands, so one person could do pretty much the same thing as another person.
The world is no longer that simple. Now, the capabilities of the equipment are more important than they have been in the past. This is a development of the 1980s, when cameras went high tech, and has been continuing on ever since.
The advantage of full frame digital is high ISO performance, along with the possibility of returning to the golden era of good viewfinders.
It doesn't matter what they do to a cropped frame viewfinder, it is still a small image to compose with,.

Calling a crop framed viewfinder good is like saying my dog's breath isn't bad, considering he is a dog.
At least amoung the dogs, Pentax has just about the best dog breath.

So, why should high ISO performance mean squat to me? Because my competition has it and I don't. My competition can walk into a dimly lit church and do hand held available light work that I can only dream about doing.
Why should this matter to me?
It matters because my competition's work now looks better than mine in that situation, and it can cause me to lose sales.
The difference between hamburger for dinner or a nice steak.
So, why don't I just switch over to Nikon full frame then?

As you will find, as time jades your idealism, and you start to see in shades of gray, rather than seeing everything in terms of either/or, that life is a compromise in everything that we do.
I switch from Pentax cropped format to Nikon full frame at a tremendous cost. In order to exchange lenses that I use on a regular basis for equal quality lenses from Nikon would cost me tens of thousands of dollars, and honestly, I don't think it is worth it or possible, even if I could afford it.
I use lenses on a day to day basis that are unmatched for quality from any other manufacturer, and this is a compromise I'm not willing to make.
Sure, I could write the equipment off over several years, but I still have to pay for the stuff up front.
I'd never eat another steak.
So instead, I lobby Pentax to make, if not a full frame camera, at least a camera that has a bigger sensor without an increase in pixel count.

I do this because I know that they can make a better Pentax, and because my work would benefit from a better Pentax, not a full frame Nikon. What I want is equipment driven.
A better skill set from me is not going to help my camera's high ISO performance when compared to a Nikon D3 or D700, any suggestions to the contrary won't make it so.

Wheatfield, you have summed up the entire reason this forum exists...to hash these things out. Those of us who have invested a lot of time into a system, and a great system at that, want to keep that system and move forward. The forum allows us to discuss these issues from the brand perspective versus the industry perspective.

Great post.
01-07-2009, 12:55 PM   #71
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Gnesta, Sweden
Posts: 373
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Ok, here's the deal from my perspective.
I'm a "professional photographer"
In my neck of the woods, this means I am pretty much a whore with a camera if I am going to make a living.
I work on contract with a local studio.
We shoot weddings during the summer, school photos during the fall, Santa Photos for a few shopping malls during the Christmas season.
This is not easy work.
We also shoot family portraits, and we have a few commercial contracts.
All this conspires to keep the doors open, but none of it is glamorous work.
Whoring.

In order to keep the wolf from my door, I renovate houses to supplement my photography income. Sometimes, the photography supplements the renovating, sometimes it's the other way around.

Just for the record, pulling the leaky toilet flange rotted sub floor out of a bathroom isn't glamorous work either. It is smelly and disgusting work.
But it lets me be a "professional photographer", which is my passion.

When I started doing this, and up until a handful of years ago, brand didn't really matter. Operationally, the difference between a Nikon F2s and a Pentax K1000 is not worth discussing. Both mechanical manual cameras. You can put a tractor drive onto the Nikon if you want to make noise.
It didn't matter what brand of camera we used, they all did about the same thing, and we all had access to the same film brands, so one person could do pretty much the same thing as another person.
The world is no longer that simple. Now, the capabilities of the equipment are more important than they have been in the past. This is a development of the 1980s, when cameras went high tech, and has been continuing on ever since.
The advantage of full frame digital is high ISO performance, along with the possibility of returning to the golden era of good viewfinders.
It doesn't matter what they do to a cropped frame viewfinder, it is still a small image to compose with,.

Calling a crop framed viewfinder good is like saying my dog's breath isn't bad, considering he is a dog.
At least amoung the dogs, Pentax has just about the best dog breath.

So, why should high ISO performance mean squat to me? Because my competition has it and I don't. My competition can walk into a dimly lit church and do hand held available light work that I can only dream about doing.
Why should this matter to me?
It matters because my competition's work now looks better than mine in that situation, and it can cause me to lose sales.
The difference between hamburger for dinner or a nice steak.
So, why don't I just switch over to Nikon full frame then?

As you will find, as time jades your idealism, and you start to see in shades of gray, rather than seeing everything in terms of either/or, that life is a compromise in everything that we do.
I switch from Pentax cropped format to Nikon full frame at a tremendous cost. In order to exchange lenses that I use on a regular basis for equal quality lenses from Nikon would cost me tens of thousands of dollars, and honestly, I don't think it is worth it or possible, even if I could afford it.
I use lenses on a day to day basis that are unmatched for quality from any other manufacturer, and this is a compromise I'm not willing to make.
Sure, I could write the equipment off over several years, but I still have to pay for the stuff up front.
I'd never eat another steak.
So instead, I lobby Pentax to make, if not a full frame camera, at least a camera that has a bigger sensor without an increase in pixel count.

I do this because I know that they can make a better Pentax, and because my work would benefit from a better Pentax, not a full frame Nikon. What I want is equipment driven.
A better skill set from me is not going to help my camera's high ISO performance when compared to a Nikon D3 or D700, any suggestions to the contrary won't make it so.
Hi!!

This is great. I am really happy that you was share this with me and everybody else. This things maybe seams very clear for you, becasue that is your life and your work and it could maybe explain why you was a little upset about my first post. Now I understand the importance with pentax gear for you, so well in this situation you are right.
This is clear, just like the fact that you are a good photographer , and in some ways the gear can have a big differens, and well Im happy to that people at least in the end understood that my point not was to criticate pentax photographers, but to remind the people that can be little too much "just gear", that we are acctually here to take pictures and the gear is only an helping arm in this procces.

Thanks for share this nice story with us wheatfield

Best Regards

Emil Gustafsson
01-07-2009, 01:02 PM   #72
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QuoteQuote:
well Im happy to that people at least in the end understood that my point not was to criticate pentax photographers, but to remind the people that can be little too much "just gear", that we are acctually here to take pictures and the gear is only an helping arm in this procces.

yea that's great... but what you do not get is that this community is full of people who already know that, and tell people that everyday... (myself included) we have already tried to tell you this, but you have not bothered to read that apparently... in summary: we already know. this is part of the reason that some of us have been upset at your posts. you seem to be completely ignoring the photography sections of this forum, and the fact that we already told you that we know and understand this 'new' information you are trying to teach us... this community is a lot more wise and intelligent than you obviously give us credit for.
01-07-2009, 01:11 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkpotter Quote
How about answering his questions?



Great, just Great. The low light ability of my K20d has enabled me to take many highly artistic photos in low light situations I would never be able to shoot with a compact. My 12-24mm lens gives me a much wider view than a any compact could give me. My creative latitude has greatly increased in many, many ways using the K20d not the least of which is shooting 14.6 megapixel raw files.

It is difficult but I try to lug my SLR with me when I can. Size and portability are obviously the main downside of using an SLR. I do miss shots sometimes when I leave my K20d at home! I do miss shots sometimes when changing lenses. People do freeze sometimes when you pull out a big fat SLR with a jumbo lens. If I were to buy a more portable compact camera to keep with me at all times it certainly wouldn't be a Pentax. I would buy a Panasonic Lumix DMC- LX3, or the Canon G10, or Nikon P6000. To me those are the only 3 serious choices right now. (I'm sure there are many who would disagree.) Your shooting style, and what you are attempting to achieve will dictate what camera you need.
I have seen excellent pictures and true art created with pinhole cameras made out of cardboard tubes from toilet paper rolls. You can obsess with Camera technology to the point of losing sight of what it means to get out there and take good pictures, but to each his own! (We have to allow for collectors.) But, for me, there is no substitute for my K20d and lenses.
QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
Welcome losecontrol, I really look forward to having you as an active member of the forum and seeing some of your photos.
Anyone who throws down the gaunlet like you do here in your first post... well lets just say you will be fun and interesting addition to the pentax forum family.

The pot always needs a good stir and even a scorching sometimes....
Hi and thank you very much for a Real answer and for the first real welcome message

Im glad you did understand my post without taking bad experience.

Maybe any people have missunderstood what i mean with art. I don't mean abstract art in every situation. I used the word art for explain the pictures we make. Our art. I don't mean do strange photos in b&w or nothing like that, so people please stop to be sarcastic.

I am too a little bit sad to see "nationalistic" comments in the forum. Just like that it's swedens foult that i think the way i do. This only proves that any people here are not just so madures that i was expected. I am terrebly sorry for not speak as well english like any of you americans....I was just not born speaking it...accept it

I will start to share my photos soon but how I have all in DIA-film so I have to scan this first

I am happy to see 6pages in this post, even if I wished a little bit more positive talk. Well...im happy to be here and i hope that it will be a great and serios discution in the end

Best regards my friends

Emil
01-07-2009, 01:20 PM   #74
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QuoteQuote:
This only proves that any people here are not just so madures that i was expected.
wrong. your not the only swede here and this statement is just as bad as the one made about your nationality.
01-07-2009, 01:33 PM   #75
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I remember when I was 20 and thought I actually knew something...

*sigh* those were the days.

Of course now I'm 47 and know even less. That damn Buddhism...

"I can't wait until I'm old enough to feel ways about stuff."

- Philip J. Fry
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