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01-08-2009, 11:06 AM   #16
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About the only time I use a scene mode is when I hand the camera over to the wife when she goes off with our son. As far as the dislike - elitism, I can only compare how the people that coded in C had purposely made it as unreadable as possible to only include those that understood. It's called obsfucation. There were contests for it. The idea was - we know how to code and you don't and we're not going to help you. Just like the cameras, the presets are for people that don't know and I don't want a camera with them because I don't need them - I know what I'm doing.

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01-08-2009, 11:09 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote

like a Canon 5D, it does not have a built in flash, and for good reason
Whats the good reason? The similiar "class" D700 does have built in flash. Handy for fill flash, but even more useful is the ability to be able to trigger off-camera slaves...
01-08-2009, 11:18 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by achan68 Quote
Whats the good reason? The similiar "class" D700 does have built in flash. Handy for fill flash, but even more useful is the ability to be able to trigger off-camera slaves...
or how about you get a normal master flash and use that if you are going to be working in a studio.


honestly, you're going to buy a D700 for studio work and then save a few hundred bucks using your pop up flash to trigger your slaves? :ugh:

there is a reason the 5D costs as much as it does, they decided not to pack the damn thing with can openers and other junk.
01-08-2009, 11:21 AM   #19
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All I need is Av and M. Dumb question, on Pentax bodies, can you still shoot RAW in Green box/Scene modes? On Canon (at least my 40D and Xsi), you can only shoot in JPG in any of the "Automagic" modes, which immediately disqualifies them for my use.

01-08-2009, 11:37 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
honestly, you're going to buy a D700 for studio work and then save a few hundred bucks using your pop up flash to trigger your slaves? :ugh:
Um, the point is that it is flexible and gives you the option of doing so. But that's not really a good reason for not having built in flash, is it?

So you'll use the few hundred bucks you maybe saved on the camera, and then turn around and spend it on a flash?


QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
there is a reason the 5D costs as much as it does, they decided not to pack the damn thing with can openers and other junk.
BTW, what was the original list price of the 5D...around $3KUSD? Not exactly cheap and the same as the original list of the D700. The 5DMKii sells for $2.7KUSD...D700 now sells for $2.3KUSD?

Last edited by achan68; 01-08-2009 at 11:42 AM.
01-08-2009, 12:16 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by achan68 Quote
Um, the point is that it is flexible and gives you the option of doing so. But that's not really a good reason for not having built in flash, is it?

So you'll use the few hundred bucks you maybe saved on the camera, and then turn around and spend it on a flash?
um.. yeah, because an external flash is better than a pop up flash, and i would never buy the 5D to shoot my kid playing with the dog in the first place.

and if you dont use flash, then all the better


QuoteOriginally posted by achan68 Quote
BTW, what was the original list price of the 5D...around $3KUSD? Not exactly cheap and the same as the original list of the D700. The 5DMKii sells for $2.7KUSD...D700 now sells for $2.3KUSD?
the 5D came out in 2005, pentax at the time belched out a dinky *ist DS2 with a street price (correct me if i'm wrong) of around 800 USD, and nikon had only the D2Hs out, a 4 (yes, FOUR) megapixel FF camera that had its starting price around 4800 USD

i have no idea why you are still trying to compare a 5D to a D700 but whatever, thats not the point

the point is there are things you can make that are jack of all trades, or you can focus on one thing and do it well and for less money

look up "rambo knife" for a good analogy.

i dont need a camera with a built in flash, nor do i need a camera with scene and "action" modes, also myself particulary i dont need FPS either, i just dont shoot that fast

why should i pay for an expensive and newly designed shutter mechanism because the other half of you are screaming "we want machine guns"

not that i REALLY care, but you have to understand how some of us can get a little disappointed when we are pretty much forced to pay for something we dont want.
01-08-2009, 12:48 PM   #22
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In my not so humble opinion...

I don't use scene modes but it doesn't bother me to have them. I keep thinking some day I'll have time to try them all. I don't think Scene Modes add any noticeable cost to the camera. The software design cost was absorbed long ago for P&S cameras and is only tweaked a little for a new camera. I don't think they take up space that could be used for more important things. ROM space is cheap these days, if Pentax was running out of program space they would uses a bigger ROM.

I wish Pentax would say what the scene modes actually do! I would be more accepting of Night Scene if I knew what parameters were changed and by how much. The Pentax manual says:

Night Scene: Used for night scenes.
Pet: For capturing moving pets.
01-08-2009, 01:13 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
i dont need a camera with a built in flash, nor do i need a camera with scene and "action" modes, also myself particulary i dont need FPS either, i just dont shoot that fast

why should i pay for an expensive and newly designed shutter mechanism because the other half of you are screaming "we want machine guns"

not that i REALLY care, but you have to understand how some of us can get a little disappointed when we are pretty much forced to pay for something we dont want.
I understand how you feel, but you don't have to pay for anything...no one is holding a gun to your head to buy or upgrade to whatever new model is released.

Pentax will design and manufacture cameras that they think meets a majority of their target audiences' wants/needs. If they are wrong then the camera won't sell...

01-08-2009, 01:26 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by achan68 Quote
I understand how you feel, but you don't have to pay for anything...no one is holding a gun to your head to buy or upgrade to whatever new model is released.

Pentax will design and manufacture cameras that they think meets a majority of their target audiences' wants/needs. If they are wrong then the camera won't sell...
okay there captain obvious

no one is talking about guns being held up to heads

read the title of the thread

question was asked, "why"

answers were given, "because"

why you bustin my balls over this?
01-08-2009, 01:48 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
Mashing the Shutter Button.
Didn't they open for Rage Against the Machine last year?
01-08-2009, 01:51 PM   #26
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Eh, automation is automation. Scene modes are just a bunch of settings and a program line. I'd use em on my little Lumix ...what I'd consider a fair amount, for someone with as much fogeyism as me.

I actually hadn't noticed their absence from the K20d, cause there's plenty of dials and such to tell the camera what to do: meters are getting smart enough lately that you can usually point somewhere and say 'Like that' and get something, too.

Scene modes can be fairly handy, though, if you're lacking the dials, ...if you know what the camera's trying to do. I'd often leave the 'snow' setting cued up and then I could turn a dial and expect competent things most of the time

Just another kind of tool. No substitute for learning, but sometimes handy.
01-08-2009, 03:18 PM   #27
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its not that i feel like im better than you for not using scene modes, its that i feel like im bettering my skills as a photographer by not using them. i understand they can make some situations easier but the whole reason i got a dslr is to have as much control over the output image as possible, which is why i rarely use anything other than M and AV with exposure composition and occasionally TV when i specifically want to freeze or blur a subject.
i dont know exactly what goes through the cameras mind when it does what it does for a scene mode, but i know that i would rather just learn what to do myself. the only time i ever use full auto on a camera is on a point and shoot while im on a vacation going snowboarding or something and just want snapshot memories, not photographs.
i dont think im a snob for not wanting scene modes, its just something ive never found myself using even with my canon superzoom and i would rather my camera be less cluttered with things i wont use, keep it simple.
i upgraded to get better images and as much control as possible and i feel that most of the time a scene mode takes too much of the control away from me is all. i dont think any less of people for using scene modes- just aint my cup of tea
01-08-2009, 05:03 PM   #28
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as good a place as any

This is what I have wanted to bring up myself but hadn't yet. My peeve is when someone asks something like, which model Pentax should they get as a first dSLR and someone may say that the K200D is designed to fill that position in the line up and how it was a great value compared to other mid level cameras and more often than not it will be followed by the "you need to get the K10D or K20D because they are professional cameras and have two thumb wheels to adjust app and speed, the K200D will require you to go into the menu system to adjust them". Fact is that in manual mode I set the shutter speed with the thumb wheel and when I press the A+/- button I can set the aperture with the same thumb wheel, no menus necessary.

Or the following is another example of K20 vs K200D.
QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
I tend to be turned off of the K200D as opposed to the K20D not because of the scene modes (they're on my E-330 and I never feel compelled to use them) but because their presence takes up the space that otherwise might include x-sync, bulb, sensitivity priority, shutter+aperture priority, and USER preset. All of which sound extremely useful to me, in particular the TAv. If the K20D also had a couple scene modes or maybe just a "scene" setting on the mode dial that allowed the user to pick through a menu of different scene modes, I really wouldn't care that much. I wouldn't use it, but I wouldn't be bothered by it either.
K200D has both bulb and sensitivity priority, on the mode dial.

bracketing, it has it, just not as many modes as the higher end cameras, but it does have exposure bracketing, not "it doesn't have" or "if it had bracketing".

I hear a lot of half truths quoted in the explaination of the superiority of the K10 and K20 over the K200D.
01-08-2009, 05:30 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by sterretje Quote
There are more differences between a K10 and a K200 Higher frame rates, continuous AF, more comprehensive bracketing, ???
K200D has got AF.C, only difference as I understand it is that you have to change AF mode through the menu.
01-08-2009, 09:07 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by the_int21h Quote
I can only compare how the people that coded in C had purposely made it as unreadable as possible to only include those that understood. It's called obsfucation. There were contests for it. The idea was - we know how to code and you don't and we're not going to help you.
That's just wrong.

C is hard to use because the problems it was designed to solve are hard problems. And if you compare it to what it replaced (assembly language), it's extremely readable. Elitism has nothing to do with it.

The Obfuscated C programming contests are self-deprecating humor.

(Off topic indeed, though I'm not convinced this thread is going anywhere useful anyway....)

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