I haven't noticed this before

Ole · 03-18-2007, 09:20 PM

Setup: K10D, FA*300/4.5, F1.7x AF converter
1/350sec, F8.0, ISO 800, SR on, set to 450mm
PEF RAW
Handheld
No postprocessing except resizing

I got horizontal lines on all my shots today taken from my kitchen window. In most cases the lines were only visible in the shadow parts, but on this image they are everywhere.

I haven't seen this before but it is also the first time I used the above set-up.

Any ideas what's causing this?

SR in combination with my unsteady hands?

Attached Images

View Picture EXIF

Last edited by Ole; 03-19-2007 at 07:10 AM. Reason: Mistake corrected - vertical changed to horizontal

Cideway · 03-18-2007, 09:31 PM

OKay this is either the Banding issue or the Vertical pattern noise, you haven't mentioned which firmware version you are using, so i am purely assuming that you may be running version 1.0, if so upgrade to either 1.1 or 1.11 depending on whether or not you want access to the Debug menu or not. You also don't mention which program you used to post process, so i am going to make another assumption based on the .PEF note that you are either using the Pentax software or ACR in either Photoshop, elements or Light Room, and by that i might suggest that you try a different converter if you access to one.

Hopefully this helps, it is annoying when issues like this pop up, i had something similar with my DS before they released 2.0 that made me lose a $500 job, quiet a kick in the guts for a student.

-=JoN=- · 03-18-2007, 09:40 PM

you mentioned kitchen window...did you shoot through a screen?

might just be the window getting in the way

Alvin · 03-18-2007, 10:08 PM

I shoot through car windows a ton and get that effect every so often. Have you tried a different shot afterwards pointing the camera elsewhere and got the same effect? Different lens/filter?

RiceHigh · 03-18-2007, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by Alvin

I shoot through car windows a ton and get that effect every so often. Have you tried a different shot afterwards pointing the camera elsewhere and got the same effect? Different lens/filter?

Your post pic looks very strange to me as the Horizontal Pattern Noise (HPN) is so obvious and especially considering that you took the picture under normal lighting condition.

I'm afraid that your K10D is off-calibrated and it should be sent back to Pentax for checking and re-adjustment.

For more information about the cause of HPN or VPN or simply Bandings and what should be considered as normal, you may wish to look also my latest article on this:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: VPN and HPN / Bandings of the K10D

Also, from my quoted experiment in the beginning of my article, it seems that activation of SR will not create VPN or HPN but the use of the battery grip D-BG2 will. (Do you use the D-BG2 btw?)

Hope this helps and Good Luck!

Alvin · 03-18-2007, 11:52 PM

Rice, you directing your response to me or Ole or both of us?

Thanks.

RiceHigh · 03-19-2007, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Alvin

Rice, you directing your response to me or Ole or both of us?

Thanks.

I think I intended to reply to Ole whom is the OP, but I wrongly quoted your reply post :-)

Alvin · 03-19-2007, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by RiceHigh

I think I intended to reply to Ole whom is the OP, but I wrongly quoted your reply post :-)

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. Good night!

Jonas B · 03-19-2007, 01:17 AM

Alvin, do you have a sample of this that you know is from taking a picture through a car window?

Jonas B · 03-19-2007, 01:23 AM

Well, it is some sort of banding but it is not VPN. It's also not the long exposure banding that was fixed with the firmware upgrade, and it is not the interference banding that has been showed to be caused by the grip (and for some reason called HPN).
Then what is it? No idea. I can only guess and for now I would think that what we see here is something wrong with Ole's equipment rather than a systematic error many K10D cameras suffer from.

EDIT: Writing many replies in a short time make me forget things. When I said "no idea" above I forgot the pictures were taken through a window. Start there.

Jonas B · 03-19-2007, 01:35 AM

Your blog article is too simplified RH. You seem to claim that VPN is the same as "traditional" banding. Well, it is not and it is also not looking the same.

Banding has been acknowledged by Pentax, VPN is still not mentioned or recognized by Pentax. So, there is a reason people not call VPN for banding. You may consider to rewrite, and show examples. Then you may avoid to attribute to the confusion.

VPN has, btw, been seen in normally exposed pictures.

roscot · 03-19-2007, 02:05 AM

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see any vertical patterns. I do see a strong horizontal pattern, which I am assuming is from a window screen. If it is not, it is the weirdest noise pattern I've seen.

chrisman · 03-19-2007, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by roscot

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see any vertical patterns. I do see a strong horizontal pattern, which I am assuming is from a window screen. If it is not, it is the weirdest noise pattern I've seen.

I agree with Roscot, the banding is much stronger in the horizontal. It is even more noticeable if the image is zoomed up to 400% - above that the grain takes over. It certainly doesn't look like the traditional banding problem which some cameras have (not just Pentax)

**Lowell Goudge** · 03-19-2007, 04:09 AM

I just did about 200 shots very similar to this in terms of setup over the past week .

SMC Pentax 300mm F4.0, with 1.7x autofocus adaptor and same ISO setting.

Only difference was I shot JPEG.

I did not notice any of this effect, and would have to question a few points, first, as many have mentioned, shooting through a screen, second even without a screen, there is a possibility that due to polution etc, the screen pattern is etched in to the glass on the window, and finally the re-sizing of the image. Was the problem in the original?

blende8 · 03-19-2007, 04:31 AM

We had this before, and two things have been suggested:

Either some radiofrequency interference nearby, cellphone etc...
or
An error with the memory card. Clean the contacts, try another card ..

03-19-2007, 01:23 AM	#10
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810	Well, it is some sort of banding but it is not VPN. It's also not the long exposure banding that was fixed with the firmware upgrade, and it is not the interference banding that has been showed to be caused by the grip (and for some reason called HPN). Then what is it? No idea. I can only guess and for now I would think that what we see here is something wrong with Ole's equipment rather than a systematic error many K10D cameras suffer from. EDIT: Writing many replies in a short time make me forget things. When I said "no idea" above I forgot the pictures were taken through a window. Start there. Last edited by Jonas B; 03-19-2007 at 02:19 AM.

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03-18-2007, 09:31 PM	#2
Cideway Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Adelaide, South Australia, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 364	OKay this is either the Banding issue or the Vertical pattern noise, you haven't mentioned which firmware version you are using, so i am purely assuming that you may be running version 1.0, if so upgrade to either 1.1 or 1.11 depending on whether or not you want access to the Debug menu or not. You also don't mention which program you used to post process, so i am going to make another assumption based on the .PEF note that you are either using the Pentax software or ACR in either Photoshop, elements or Light Room, and by that i might suggest that you try a different converter if you access to one. Hopefully this helps, it is annoying when issues like this pop up, i had something similar with my DS before they released 2.0 that made me lose a $500 job, quiet a kick in the guts for a student.

03-18-2007, 09:40 PM	#3
-=JoN=- Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 999	you mentioned kitchen window...did you shoot through a screen? might just be the window getting in the way

03-18-2007, 10:08 PM	#4
Alvin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,517	I shoot through car windows a ton and get that effect every so often. Have you tried a different shot afterwards pointing the camera elsewhere and got the same effect? Different lens/filter?

03-18-2007, 11:33 PM	#5
RiceHigh Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,934	Originally posted by Alvin I shoot through car windows a ton and get that effect every so often. Have you tried a different shot afterwards pointing the camera elsewhere and got the same effect? Different lens/filter? Your post pic looks very strange to me as the Horizontal Pattern Noise (HPN) is so obvious and especially considering that you took the picture under normal lighting condition. I'm afraid that your K10D is off-calibrated and it should be sent back to Pentax for checking and re-adjustment. For more information about the cause of HPN or VPN or simply Bandings and what should be considered as normal, you may wish to look also my latest article on this:- RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: VPN and HPN / Bandings of the K10D Also, from my quoted experiment in the beginning of my article, it seems that activation of SR will not create VPN or HPN but the use of the battery grip D-BG2 will. (Do you use the D-BG2 btw?) Hope this helps and Good Luck!

03-18-2007, 11:52 PM	#6
Alvin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,517	Rice, you directing your response to me or Ole or both of us? Thanks.

03-19-2007, 12:21 AM	#7
RiceHigh Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,934	Originally posted by Alvin Rice, you directing your response to me or Ole or both of us? Thanks. I think I intended to reply to Ole whom is the OP, but I wrongly quoted your reply post :-)

03-19-2007, 12:32 AM	#8
Alvin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,517	Originally posted by RiceHigh I think I intended to reply to Ole whom is the OP, but I wrongly quoted your reply post :-) Ok. Thanks for the clarification. Good night!

03-19-2007, 01:17 AM	#9
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810	Alvin, do you have a sample of this that you know is from taking a picture through a car window?

03-19-2007, 01:35 AM	#11
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810	Your blog article is too simplified RH. You seem to claim that VPN is the same as "traditional" banding. Well, it is not and it is also not looking the same. Banding has been acknowledged by Pentax, VPN is still not mentioned or recognized by Pentax. So, there is a reason people not call VPN for banding. You may consider to rewrite, and show examples. Then you may avoid to attribute to the confusion. VPN has, btw, been seen in normally exposed pictures.

03-19-2007, 02:05 AM	#12
roscot Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach VA USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,363	Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see any vertical patterns. I do see a strong horizontal pattern, which I am assuming is from a window screen. If it is not, it is the weirdest noise pattern I've seen.

03-19-2007, 02:24 AM	#13
chrisman Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Sydney Photos: Gallery Posts: 237	Originally posted by roscot Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see any vertical patterns. I do see a strong horizontal pattern, which I am assuming is from a window screen. If it is not, it is the weirdest noise pattern I've seen. I agree with Roscot, the banding is much stronger in the horizontal. It is even more noticeable if the image is zoomed up to 400% - above that the grain takes over. It certainly doesn't look like the traditional banding problem which some cameras have (not just Pentax)

03-19-2007, 04:09 AM	#14
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,888	I just did about 200 shots very similar to this in terms of setup over the past week . SMC Pentax 300mm F4.0, with 1.7x autofocus adaptor and same ISO setting. Only difference was I shot JPEG. I did not notice any of this effect, and would have to question a few points, first, as many have mentioned, shooting through a screen, second even without a screen, there is a possibility that due to polution etc, the screen pattern is etched in to the glass on the window, and finally the re-sizing of the image. Was the problem in the original?

03-19-2007, 04:31 AM	#15
blende8 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bremen, Germany Photos: Albums Posts: 1,521	We had this before, and two things have been suggested: Either some radiofrequency interference nearby, cellphone etc... or An error with the memory card. Clean the contacts, try another card ..