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01-12-2009, 06:06 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by NicholasN Quote
I'd say this requires a poll on the forum....

Something along the lines of "How many first time DSLR owners use multiple lenses"
And how many people are on this forum vs. the total number of units sold? The poll wouldn't give you any reliable data.

This is what you're not thinking about - not every dSLR purchaser is an enthusiast. And in fact, I'd bet enthusiasts make up a rather small percentage. Especially for entry level cameras.

And I'm still curious what your friend found lacking in the LX3. I find the Dlux4 quite capable, though I know what aspects of it are lacking for *my* needs, hence my also having a K20d.

01-12-2009, 06:08 PM   #32
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I'd say, just get one of the Lumix models if that's the sort of thing you want. I like em, for what they are, anyway.

The only thing is, there's just little *economic* reason not to get at least a used DSLR, unless you know the limitations of the bridge cameras, want their strengths, and suchlike, and still want one. I suggest at least the FZ-8 model with Lumix, if you don't need it to go very wide. (I have the FZ-7, and the 8 made some much-needed improvements without changing the lens.)

They're little wonders, this sort of camera, but they do have their limitations. Namely, moving subjects, really. Lag in the electronic viewfinder, slow controls, etc. But they can do nearly anything while being small, if you have the time, which is the key issue. (I'm kind of hoping these things really come of age, myself.)

Even a basic DSLR puts you pretty much in real-time, and that's worth a lot more than a big zoom factor in terms of actual images. Also, the bigger sensor will give you good image quality, even if the megapixels are fewer.

Don't be intimidated by it being a DSLR, those can automate just as fully as a bridge camera.

But, if you know what you're about with this, I like the Lumix products, and it seems there are a whole lot of 'imitators' out there to choose from, too.


(Also, seems the second time today that I've seen someone confuse the word 'prosumer' for 'bridge camera.' Where's *that* coming from?)
01-12-2009, 06:31 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by grainbelt Quote
Regarding LX3/G10 - they sell at a large premium to FZ18/SX10IS, nearer to SLR money.

One option that hasn't been pointed out is the Canon Powershot A-series, which offer all the manual control of the bridge cameras at about $150. Much smaller EVF and fewer dedicated buttons, but likely enough control over exposure to be a worthwhile learning tool.


As for the Canon A-series digital compacts, they're wonderful little guys in their own right, but, no they don't. I actually have a sometime student who's using one, and found out firsthand the limitations there. Some compacts may differ. but bridge cameras really do have a lot more in that regard. It's just slow to get to it.

I guess the OP hasn't been back at all, but I agree with the poster that mentioned matters were different a few years ago, when there was a real price differential between even used DSLRs an something like a Lumix FZ. Which I got around the same time... Really to save film and learn the computer end of things as I got back with my old-school film work. This was, in my own terms, the 'first acceptable digital thing' to come within reach. Cost a couple hundred. Got me close to up to speed, but didn't live up to my hopes as regarded making good enough results for small-town papers... too slow for most people shots. At the time, the shutter lag was supposed to be among the best out there, but if I could really lay hands to a DSLR worth having for twice the price, I would have. Couldn't. It's different, now.

Still, here's the equivalent of a 35-435 2.8-3.3 camera that can focus inside its own lens hood (virtues of the tiny sensor) ...and fit in a blazer pocket if I take the hood off.

There's valid reasons to like that. It's something out of sci-fi to me. Just don't think the manual controls work on the fly, or that the long focal length equivalence means you can do sports.

Still. Fun. Sometimes useful. Frustrating, but... call it a Swiss Army knife. It's not a scalpel, it's not a hunting knife, it's not a saw... But it fits in your pocket and does a lot.
01-12-2009, 06:45 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
I didn't realize that the FZ28 sensor was significantly smaller than the LX3 though.
Has to be to make a superzoom lens so small. It's 1/2.33" versus 1.63" - on the same order as the difference between APS-C and FF. It's one of the big selling points of the LX3 and G10 (whose sensor is only slightly smaller).

01-12-2009, 06:52 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by grainbelt Quote
Regarding LX3/G10 - they sell at a large premium to FZ18/SX10IS, nearer to SLR money.
The FZ18 is a discontinued model, but The different in price between the LX3 and FZ28 or SX10IS is only around $100 at B&H and other major retailers.

QuoteQuote:
One option that hasn't been pointed out is the Canon Powershot A-series, which offer all the manual control of the bridge cameras at about $150.
Yeah, they could suit some folks too. But depending on what the OP has already and what his specific needs are in upgrading, these might not feel like much of a step up.
01-12-2009, 10:16 PM   #36
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Everyone I know with a DSLR has, and uses, multiple lenses. Entry level DSLRs are almost always advertised as "twin lens kits" here in Oz. Once you get to D300's, 50D's and even K20D's then you might even get a 'body only' advert. Pretty rare though, a lens is usually included.

For those with a superzoom bridge... have you actually taken a decent shot at 400+mm? I've seen some from family, etc and they've all been terrible. I remember looking thru my fathers Fuji something with EVF and thinking how can anyone put up with this!

Since the OP had disappeared, I'm going to go off topic a bit What I'd like is a proper (base screwed into tripod socket) "every-ready" case (one that holds my 16-45 with lenshood in shooting position). Does anyone make such a thing any more? I haven't seen on recently. I use a slingbag which is good but at times I just want to be able to flip the every-ready cover, takea pic and flip it shut again. I've got snoot-bags but they just aren't the same.
01-12-2009, 10:41 PM   #37
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QuoteQuote:
Everyone I know with a DSLR has, and uses, multiple lenses
QuoteQuote:
Entry level DSLRs are almost always advertised as "twin lens kits" here in Oz
These were exactly the same reasons for my comments. Everybody I know uses more than one lens. And bingo on the twin lens kits, every store I know of pushes their entry level DSLR sales that way.
01-12-2009, 11:17 PM   #38
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And are you guys enthusiasts or typical entry level dslr buyers? Given the k20d in your sig I'd say the former. My point is that for every person on this forum there are hundreds of more typical buyers. You cant look at your peer group and generalize from that. I know plenty of dslr owners who shoot full auto and wouldn't know how to remove a lens if you held a gun to their head. My bet is that is a more typical entry level owner rather than somebody who posts on a web forum.

01-12-2009, 11:24 PM   #39
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seamuis:
QuoteQuote:
in the end though what Im getting at is if the OP does have plans on upgrading to a DSLR in the future, why add the extra expensive step of the bridge camera? the learning curve from P&S to DSLR isn't that steep, especially with the K2000 and the cost between the K2000 (street price) and say a Lumix FZ28 isnt all that different. and since we have no idea if the OP will likely use the longer end of the zoom or the shorter end of the zoom more often its hard to say if the OP would actually need the 18
I bought my FZ 28, around Christmas, at B & H, for $235--shipped to my door. I just looked at B & H and they want $589 for the K2000 and kit lens setup. I think this is a significant cost difference. I own a K20 and love it--$3000, easy, into it and the lenses. Truly love it.

However, the $235 I spent on the FZ28 is now the happiest photographic money I ever spent. The return for my dollar is astounding. No, it is not DSLR quality, but it is astounding.

The ISO capablities of the Pannys are getting better--I am amazed what the FZ28 does. You can print ISO 400 shots at larger print sizes--incredible. The camera's Leica lens covers (35mm equiv) of 27 to 486mm--amazing, and Ca and barrel distortion are amazingly controlled. There is no real need to shoot RAW, in fact it is, in a few ways, disadvantageous to shoot RAW with this camera.

And the camera offers excellent video choices, althought the HD video is somewhat disapointing due to the less than adequate audio (due to poor speaker placement). The camera also has a fantastic automated mode for those moments when you might only want to push a button. You can select from different aspect ratios and the camera's Macro mode is amazingly good too.

With a K20d and an arsenal of 15 lenses, I never thought I would find myself buying a so-called bridge camera. But after I read and saw what the Panny FZ28 does for $235--I had to own one--I will find time to use it and it does offer advantages over the K20, not the least of which is the amazing light weight of it

I think the FZ28, as well as other manufacturers' bridge cameras, stand wholly justified as a sound photographic expense. I'll tell you one thing, I do not like shooting with the LCD monitor though, and given the Panny's lousy EVF I almost have to. But I will say I find it splendid how easy Panny made it to manually focus the dream Leica lens, whereas I still struggle to get great manual focus with my K20 and its pentaprism.
01-13-2009, 07:45 AM   #40
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QuoteQuote:
I bought my FZ 28, around Christmas, at B & H, for $235--shipped to my door. I just looked at B & H and they want $589 for the K2000 and kit lens setup. I think this is a significant cost difference. I own a K20 and love it--$3000, easy, into it and the lenses. Truly love it.
I purchased a K-m and 18-55mm for $335 shipped. there are places other than B&H and Adorama. (and im not talking about those NY based scam sites)
01-13-2009, 08:09 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by grainbelt Quote
Allow me to offer a counterpoint.

I went from an Olympus stylus p&s to a Canon S5IS superzoom/bridge, to a K200D, in the course of about 18 months.

Over a year ago I was rather uncomfortable making the jump to DSLR, and wanted a bit of a preview of the experience. The bridge cameras such as my S5IS are not necessarily a step up from an IQ perspective, but they are a great psychological bridge, with quite a few features that offer a preview of the DSLR experience.

The simple act of fully manual shooting, understanding WB, noise, etc. took me a while to get a hang of. That, along with a more concerted effort to understand composition, made for about a year of enjoyable photography. Some of the enjoyment is the ability to worry about exposure and composition without a real effective DOF at larger apertures. I eventually grew to understand the shortcomings of the camera, and decided it was worth it to buy into a DSLR system.

To say that the $350 I spent a year ago (of which I recouped $200 upon sale) was a waste of money or somehow unimportant sells short the learning process provided by a decent bridge or superzoom. I've learned even more since buying a DSLR, but the S5IS allowed me a comfortable learning curve.

As always, your results may vary.
I did practically the same thing as you, I went from a Fuji s8000fd 18X super zoom to a Pentax k100d in about 6 months and a month after that, getting the k200d. I was lucky to resell on EBAY the Fuji and the K100d for as much as I paid for them originally. The difference in noise levels between the Pentax and the Fuji bridgecam were like night and day, Pentax shined at 800 + ISO while the Fuji looked noisy even at 200 ISO.
Bridgecams do have a place, if your not in the mood to lug around a lot of gear like extra long lenses, it's perhaps a great second camera, I've even been looking at that 26v zoom Olympus too, it's looks tempting but I'll wait for test results first before I'd get one..unlike I did with the Fuji.

Barry
01-13-2009, 09:47 AM   #42
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Some of the posts here are a little narrow.

We must first realize that this forum is basically catering to those of us who know or are learning our dSLR's and take advantage of the lens changing abilities of a dSLR, but outside this forum and in the general public I think you'd find many people who don't change there lenses. I work with a handful.

The funny thing, if you can call it funny, is that most of the people I know are actually C & N owners whom don't change there lenses. For them, their entry level dSLR's is just a top of the line p&s that makes them feel better about themselves and their photography. There is nothing wrong with that, and they are probably getting better shots than one could get with any other bridge or p&s camera.

However, for us to be so narrow minded that a dSLR is the only way to go because it was the only way for us, is ridiculous. If I would have come to this forum 5 years ago when I was contemplating what became my bridge camera purchase I would have left very quickly. I don't want to be insulting, but when people are making such a purchase they are often naive about exactly what they want or what the technology even offers.... Seeing this thread, would have scared me with a bit of the pushiness being shown and a bit of the thick headedness about dSLR's as the only way.

Of course, being a dSLR forum, I'm not sure what the OP might expect, and the OP hasn't offered up much help, but it really bugs me how people here talk about money like everyone can spend it as easily as they do. My primary reason for getting a bridge camera 5 years ago was because every little penny counted, I was a college student with almost no spare change, and I wanted something that could get me photos while I saved my pennies for a dSLR that was better than the entry level offered. I was still new to the digital world, and I didn't trust used equipment.

I didn't have the experience I do now and that many of you here have provided me to realize that even used dSLR's can be a good buy. Many people, myself included, have become so used to the throw away, no quality, and no durability of most digital and electronic equipment, so why should a dSLR be any different? This is all rhetorical, as I now know better, but I didn't at the time. My own bridge camera gave me incentive to learn more about photography and allowed me to recognize what I needed when I finally moved to the dSLR world. I am grateful for that. It takes time to learn, and those years with my bridge camera, 4 of them, made me that much more certain when I went to a dSLR that I got exactly what I wanted.

This is good... So many people I know have the entry level Canon Rebel (whatever model was available when they made their purchase) that have never changed the lens and are amazed by the shots I take, even though I feel I have a lot to learn. You'd think it would give them incentive, but then again, that is what makes me an enthusiast. It is enthusiasts like those here that help me learn because I know that almost everyone here truly takes pride in their cameras and doing all they can with them. That isn't as easy to find as you might think, especially from my point of view, which is just as an amateur hobbyist who loves photography a little more than the average amateur hobbyist.
01-13-2009, 09:51 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by samuis Quote
I purchased a K-m and 18-55mm for $335 shipped. there are places other than B&H and Adorama. (and im not talking about those NY based scam sites)
That's true, but it isn't always easy to know the difference between what is good and what is a scam site. B&H, Adorama, Amazon all have good reputations, so you know you are getting a great product.

It would be great if people would actually start a thread outlining good online outlets for items as I often find it daunting when looking for good deals and deals that might be just a bit too good to be true.
01-13-2009, 11:01 PM   #44
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QuoteQuote:
seamuis:
QuoteQuote:
I purchased a K-m and 18-55mm for $335 shipped. there are places other than B&H and Adorama. (and im not talking about those NY based scam sites)
Wow! That is a great deal--can you tell us where you found that deal? Thanks.
01-14-2009, 06:51 AM   #45
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Count me in as one of those who owns a K10D, a Panasonic superzoom and a Fuji F50 who uses them for different purposes. For small family album prints including vacations, the DSLR stays in the bag. I have watched with amusement, sometimes with pity, as DSLR users stuggle with their cameras and bag of lenses at Disneyland, for example, as I have fun shooting my kids with my P&S that fits in my pocket. Going to take a DSLR to the beach and change lenses? How about a dive trip, skiing or fishing? Try changing a lens for the right shot while your family is just trying to have fun. I have watched all of the above and with a DSLR it becomes about the camera, not the activity. For small album prints even at higher ISOs, there is nothing gained with a DSLR. With a little post processing, you just can't tell the difference. As for never changing lenses, the Tamron 18-250 stays on the K10D almost all the time. For very low light, I have several primes to shoot indoor events. There is even a drawback to that scenario, however, as the shutter noise from a DSLR can be very disturbing to those around you, in a play for example, including "shut the hell up" dirty looks. As for cost, you can't even come close to a superzoom for equivalent DSLR setup. The Tamron 18-250 alone runs $400. Finally, I searched the web for a Km and kit lens for just over $300 and could not find a price even close. Love to know where that site is.
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