K20d. Too high resolution?

Reps · 01-20-2009, 04:09 PM

As I have used all Pentax cameras of digital age (sort of) and must say that despite of user control variance (still have my *istD) I must say that further upgrades as K100-K10-K20 ALL made a VERY definite difference for my shooting habits and skills- IMHO I got a lil bit lazy with BENEFITS (huge I must say) of SR and despite of all SYNTHETIC tests I must declare that K20D is the best FILM camera I have ever used- and yes I mean film- as its images look like... You know... And even with my humble glass I must say- nothing to complain about :-)
BTW I even do not have an idea why I started this reply but anyway this is my humble point of view.
Best and happy shooting, JR

pentaxmz · 01-20-2009, 05:25 PM

Here is a sample taken yesterday.... sorry, not as good as the Wildman's posting! What lens did you use Wildman ?

Now with these examples, I think this is evidence enough on why 14MP is better than less pixels.

BTW, my photo was shot at F8... it seems that the focus is still softer than I am happy with. I am not sure it is the lens or the auto focus.

I used a Tamron SP 24-125mm 50th Anniversary lens for this photo.

FYI... EXIF info
Make - PENTAX Corporation
Model - PENTAX K20D
Software - K20D Ver 1.00
DateTime - 2009:01:19 11:40:10
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited
ExifOffset - 598
ExposureTime - 1/250 seconds
FNumber - 8.00
ExposureProgram - Aperture priority
ISOSpeedRatings - 400
ExifVersion - 0221
DateTimeOriginal - 2009:01:19 11:40:10
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
ExposureBiasValue - 1.00
MeteringMode - Multi-segment
FocalLength - 135.00 mm
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 4672
ExifImageHeight - 3104
InteroperabilityOffset - 54284
SensingMethod - One-chip color area sensor
ExposureMode - Manual
White Balance - Auto
FocalLengthIn35mmFilm - 202 mm
SceneCaptureType - Standard
Contrast - Hard
Saturation - Normal
Sharpness - Hard
SubjectDistanceRange - Macro

pentaxmz · 01-20-2009, 05:45 PM

Here is another example taken yesterday.

This time I have a slightly more exotic bird, using one of my better lenses (Sigma APO 70-300mm).

First image is a full frame reduced image, the next image is a more realistic crop and reduced size (compared to my first example), and the final image is a 100% crop.

These photos were taken at ISO 400 and (IMHO) the noise is barely acceptable for that speed. I am not sure why others say the K20D is superior for low noise! If anything, SR proved to work (or was that my steady hand?) as this photo was taken at 1/60 second. For 300mm, this photo turned out pretty sharp.

No corrections were made (okay, a little bit on the cropped reduced image).

- Shawn

P.S. I really wish I would have bracketed to capture the background water as well. Darn....

kenyee · 01-20-2009, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by pentaxmz

Htaken at ISO 400 and (IMHO) the noise is barely acceptable for that speed. I am not sure why others say the K20D is superior for low noise!

I think that's because you're basically in the dark area of your photo and the K20D has more chroma noise than other cameras in darker regions...

Marc Sabatella · 01-20-2009, 11:09 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by pentaxmz

These photos were taken at ISO 400 and (IMHO) the noise is barely acceptable for that speed. I am not sure why others say the K20D is superior for low noise!

Because these people are talking about noise at higher ISO (eg, 1600), and not necessarily noise in just the shadows. K20D may be weak in shadows at ISO 400 compared to other cameras, but it does pretty well in the lights and midtones at ISO 1600.

pentaxmz · 01-20-2009, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by Marc Sabatella

Because these people are talking about noise at higher ISO (eg, 1600), and not necessarily noise in just the shadows. K20D may be weak in shadows at ISO 400 compared to other cameras, but it does pretty well in the lights and midtones at ISO 1600.

That photo was captured with JPG only - set at highest quality.

After reading some resent postings, I am now wondering if I should make RAW a standard setting, rather than the exception (pressing the RAW button)?

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a way of programming the RAW button to temporarily save only JPG (without RAW). That would be useful for when I just need a quick snapshot. Sigh....

nostatic · 01-20-2009, 11:30 PM

Umm, you're pixel peeping and complaining about noise with jpg captures?

pentaxmz · 01-20-2009, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by nostatic

Umm, you're pixel peeping and complaining about noise with jpg captures?

Okay, okay.... I did kinda, sorta admit that I might have done something stupid. :ugh:

I've just switched my camera over to RAW always ON!

But, it's still too bad that I cannot program the RAW button to temporarily switch to JPG only. I'll add that to the wish list.

nostatic · 01-20-2009, 11:44 PM

yeah, I never shoot jpg with my K20d. I have an 8gig card so I have plenty of space. I end up downloading every day (or multiple times a day) so it never fills up. I just can't stand the thought of letting the camera throw away all that data.

Then again I like noise in the right places. I have no issue with iso1600 in the K20d but it works for my look.

Marc Sabatella · 01-21-2009, 04:05 PM

Are yu sure you can't program the RAW button to switch to JPEG? Seems I used to have mine set up that way. But really, I don't see the point of ever shooting JPEG. Just a waste of a button press - converting to JPEG after the fact, should you need to, doesn't take any longer than pressing the RAW button on the camera. What's the big deal?

pentaxmz · 01-21-2009, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Marc Sabatella

Are yu sure you can't program the RAW button to switch to JPEG? Seems I used to have mine set up that way. But really, I don't see the point of ever shooting JPEG. Just a waste of a button press - converting to JPEG after the fact, should you need to, doesn't take any longer than pressing the RAW button on the camera. What's the big deal?

I guess our situations are different.

There are many times where I just want to take a snap-shot and I would rather not waste the memory card space. Yes, I am using 8 GB cards and I am carrying several with me, however, it isn't a good use of my time to convert such photos to JPGs later on.

In regards to the RAW button, the only option (on firmware 1.00) is RAW+ (creating a RAW AND a JPG)... there is no option to switch to creating just a JPG.

Marc Sabatella · 01-21-2009, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by pentaxmz

it isn't a good use of my time to convert such photos to JPGs later on.

Once you start shooting RAW all the time, you'll develop a workflow in which selected files get batch converted to JPEG anyhow. I'm absolutely serious when I say that it takes no more additional time to convert a RAW to JPEG than it does to press the RAW button in the first place - a fraction of a second either way. It's only people who msotly shoot JPEG who need an extra step to handle RAW files. Once you start shooting RAW all the time, you'll probably find it's more work to handle an occasional JPEG, as it interrupts the workflow.

If you you need the card space, by all means, do what you have to - but don't fool yourself ito thinking you're saving time. If it takes any extra time at all to handle your RAW files versus the JPEG's, your workflow is serious need of improvement. Although, I forget - you are using the Pentax software. That *does* limit you pretty severely in workflow. I'd go so far as to say shooting mostly RAW isn't worth the extra hassle if you are forced to use the Pentax software, but with better software, it's the other way around: it's JPEG that isn't worth the extra hassle.

Quote:

In regards to the RAW button, the only option (on firmware 1.00) is RAW+ (creating a RAW AND a JPG)... there is no option to switch to creating just a JPG.

What camera are you talking about? I thought you had a K20D? My K200D definitely has the option to go from RAW to JPEG, and I didn't think the K200D had any features above and beyond the K20D.

jeffkrol · 01-21-2009, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by pentaxmz

I guess our situations are different.

There are many times where I just want to take a snap-shot and I would rather not waste the memory card space. Yes, I am using 8 GB cards and I am carrying several with me, however, it isn't a good use of my time to convert such photos to JPGs later on.

In regards to the RAW button, the only option (on firmware 1.00) is RAW+ (creating a RAW AND a JPG)... there is no option to switch to creating just a JPG.

WOW 8 gig and several cards and you need to conserve space for a few snaps by not using RAW+jpg?
Reminds me of the penny-wise pound foolish thing....sorry to say.
4 jpg= 1 raw I believe and 444 "sets" per 8 gig card.... correct me if I'm off on my calculations... good thing you don't shoot film

creampuff · 01-21-2009, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

WOW 8 gig and several cards and you need to conserve space for a few snaps by not using RAW+jpg?
Reminds me of the penny-wise pound foolish thing....sorry to say.
4 jpg= 1 raw I believe and 444 "sets" per 8 gig card.... correct me if I'm off on my calculations... good thing you don't shoot film

Puzzling isn't it? Memory is cheap, so there is no reason to skimp on shooting.
Actually I find the K20D's jpeg output is so good that I rarely use RAW nowadays except for critical images where the WB is tricky or I want just that bit more dynamic range.

Alfisti · 01-22-2009, 06:32 AM

Been trying to tell people this for years but they just refuse to beleive me. Just load the damn files on your PC, open PhotoLab and press "play".

Done.

The RAW button is insane because it just takes the space of something useful like a WB or ISo toggle.

Originally posted by Marc Sabatella

Once you start shooting RAW all the time, you'll develop a workflow in which selected files get batch converted to JPEG anyhow. I'm absolutely serious when I say that it takes no more additional time to convert a RAW to JPEG than it does to press the RAW button in the first place - a fraction of a second either way. .

01-20-2009, 04:09 PM	#61
Reps Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tartu, Estonia Posts: 159	Too much? I dunno... As I have used all Pentax cameras of digital age (sort of) and must say that despite of user control variance (still have my *istD) I must say that further upgrades as K100-K10-K20 ALL made a VERY definite difference for my shooting habits and skills- IMHO I got a lil bit lazy with BENEFITS (huge I must say) of SR and despite of all SYNTHETIC tests I must declare that K20D is the best FILM camera I have ever used- and yes I mean film- as its images look like... You know... And even with my humble glass I must say- nothing to complain about :-) BTW I even do not have an idea why I started this reply but anyway this is my humble point of view. Best and happy shooting, JR

01-20-2009, 05:25 PM	#62
pentaxmz Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 659	I concur - more pixels means more cropping! Here is a sample taken yesterday.... sorry, not as good as the Wildman's posting! What lens did you use Wildman ? Now with these examples, I think this is evidence enough on why 14MP is better than less pixels. BTW, my photo was shot at F8... it seems that the focus is still softer than I am happy with. I am not sure it is the lens or the auto focus. I used a Tamron SP 24-125mm 50th Anniversary lens for this photo. FYI... EXIF info Make - PENTAX Corporation Model - PENTAX K20D Software - K20D Ver 1.00 DateTime - 2009:01:19 11:40:10 YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited ExifOffset - 598 ExposureTime - 1/250 seconds FNumber - 8.00 ExposureProgram - Aperture priority ISOSpeedRatings - 400 ExifVersion - 0221 DateTimeOriginal - 2009:01:19 11:40:10 ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr ExposureBiasValue - 1.00 MeteringMode - Multi-segment FocalLength - 135.00 mm ColorSpace - sRGB ExifImageWidth - 4672 ExifImageHeight - 3104 InteroperabilityOffset - 54284 SensingMethod - One-chip color area sensor ExposureMode - Manual White Balance - Auto FocalLengthIn35mmFilm - 202 mm SceneCaptureType - Standard Contrast - Hard Saturation - Normal Sharpness - Hard SubjectDistanceRange - Macro Attached Images Last edited by pentaxmz; 01-20-2009 at 05:49 PM. Reason: EXIF is a mess

01-20-2009, 11:26 PM	#66
pentaxmz Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 659	Originally posted by Marc Sabatella Because these people are talking about noise at higher ISO (eg, 1600), and not necessarily noise in just the shadows. K20D may be weak in shadows at ISO 400 compared to other cameras, but it does pretty well in the lights and midtones at ISO 1600. That photo was captured with JPG only - set at highest quality. After reading some resent postings, I am now wondering if I should make RAW a standard setting, rather than the exception (pressing the RAW button)? Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a way of programming the RAW button to temporarily save only JPG (without RAW). That would be useful for when I just need a quick snapshot. Sigh.... Last edited by pentaxmz; 01-20-2009 at 11:27 PM. Reason: addition

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01-20-2009, 08:14 PM	#64
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	Originally posted by pentaxmz Htaken at ISO 400 and (IMHO) the noise is barely acceptable for that speed. I am not sure why others say the K20D is superior for low noise! I think that's because you're basically in the dark area of your photo and the K20D has more chroma noise than other cameras in darker regions...

01-20-2009, 11:09 PM - 1 Like	#65
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Originally posted by pentaxmz These photos were taken at ISO 400 and (IMHO) the noise is barely acceptable for that speed. I am not sure why others say the K20D is superior for low noise! Because these people are talking about noise at higher ISO (eg, 1600), and not necessarily noise in just the shadows. K20D may be weak in shadows at ISO 400 compared to other cameras, but it does pretty well in the lights and midtones at ISO 1600.

01-20-2009, 11:30 PM	#67
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Umm, you're pixel peeping and complaining about noise with jpg captures?

01-20-2009, 11:37 PM	#68
pentaxmz Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 659	Originally posted by nostatic Umm, you're pixel peeping and complaining about noise with jpg captures? Okay, okay.... I did kinda, sorta admit that I might have done something stupid. :ugh: I've just switched my camera over to RAW always ON! But, it's still too bad that I cannot program the RAW button to temporarily switch to JPG only. I'll add that to the wish list.

01-20-2009, 11:44 PM	#69
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	yeah, I never shoot jpg with my K20d. I have an 8gig card so I have plenty of space. I end up downloading every day (or multiple times a day) so it never fills up. I just can't stand the thought of letting the camera throw away all that data. Then again I like noise in the right places. I have no issue with iso1600 in the K20d but it works for my look.

01-21-2009, 04:05 PM	#70
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Are yu sure you can't program the RAW button to switch to JPEG? Seems I used to have mine set up that way. But really, I don't see the point of ever shooting JPEG. Just a waste of a button press - converting to JPEG after the fact, should you need to, doesn't take any longer than pressing the RAW button on the camera. What's the big deal?

01-21-2009, 05:13 PM	#71
pentaxmz Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 659	Originally posted by Marc Sabatella Are yu sure you can't program the RAW button to switch to JPEG? Seems I used to have mine set up that way. But really, I don't see the point of ever shooting JPEG. Just a waste of a button press - converting to JPEG after the fact, should you need to, doesn't take any longer than pressing the RAW button on the camera. What's the big deal? I guess our situations are different. There are many times where I just want to take a snap-shot and I would rather not waste the memory card space. Yes, I am using 8 GB cards and I am carrying several with me, however, it isn't a good use of my time to convert such photos to JPGs later on. In regards to the RAW button, the only option (on firmware 1.00) is RAW+ (creating a RAW AND a JPG)... there is no option to switch to creating just a JPG.

01-21-2009, 07:32 PM	#72
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Originally posted by pentaxmz it isn't a good use of my time to convert such photos to JPGs later on. Once you start shooting RAW all the time, you'll develop a workflow in which selected files get batch converted to JPEG anyhow. I'm absolutely serious when I say that it takes no more additional time to convert a RAW to JPEG than it does to press the RAW button in the first place - a fraction of a second either way. It's only people who msotly shoot JPEG who need an extra step to handle RAW files. Once you start shooting RAW all the time, you'll probably find it's more work to handle an occasional JPEG, as it interrupts the workflow. If you you need the card space, by all means, do what you have to - but don't fool yourself ito thinking you're saving time. If it takes any extra time at all to handle your RAW files versus the JPEG's, your workflow is serious need of improvement. Although, I forget - you are using the Pentax software. That does limit you pretty severely in workflow. I'd go so far as to say shooting mostly RAW isn't worth the extra hassle if you are forced to use the Pentax software, but with better software, it's the other way around: it's JPEG that isn't worth the extra hassle. Quote: In regards to the RAW button, the only option (on firmware 1.00) is RAW+ (creating a RAW AND a JPG)... there is no option to switch to creating just a JPG. What camera are you talking about? I thought you had a K20D? My K200D definitely has the option to go from RAW to JPEG, and I didn't think the K200D had any features above and beyond the K20D.

01-21-2009, 07:34 PM	#73
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by pentaxmz I guess our situations are different. There are many times where I just want to take a snap-shot and I would rather not waste the memory card space. Yes, I am using 8 GB cards and I am carrying several with me, however, it isn't a good use of my time to convert such photos to JPGs later on. In regards to the RAW button, the only option (on firmware 1.00) is RAW+ (creating a RAW AND a JPG)... there is no option to switch to creating just a JPG. WOW 8 gig and several cards and you need to conserve space for a few snaps by not using RAW+jpg? Reminds me of the penny-wise pound foolish thing....sorry to say. 4 jpg= 1 raw I believe and 444 "sets" per 8 gig card.... correct me if I'm off on my calculations... good thing you don't shoot film

01-21-2009, 07:53 PM	#74
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Originally posted by jeffkrol WOW 8 gig and several cards and you need to conserve space for a few snaps by not using RAW+jpg? Reminds me of the penny-wise pound foolish thing....sorry to say. 4 jpg= 1 raw I believe and 444 "sets" per 8 gig card.... correct me if I'm off on my calculations... good thing you don't shoot film Puzzling isn't it? Memory is cheap, so there is no reason to skimp on shooting. Actually I find the K20D's jpeg output is so good that I rarely use RAW nowadays except for critical images where the WB is tricky or I want just that bit more dynamic range.

01-22-2009, 06:32 AM	#75
Alfisti Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto (for now) Posts: 1,748	Been trying to tell people this for years but they just refuse to beleive me. Just load the damn files on your PC, open PhotoLab and press "play". Done. The RAW button is insane because it just takes the space of something useful like a WB or ISo toggle. Originally posted by Marc Sabatella Once you start shooting RAW all the time, you'll develop a workflow in which selected files get batch converted to JPEG anyhow. I'm absolutely serious when I say that it takes no more additional time to convert a RAW to JPEG than it does to press the RAW button in the first place - a fraction of a second either way. .