[benjikan]

I'd suggest you stop reading and go out and do something really productive like shooting pictures with a Pentax camera.
That's what photography is all about - it's taking pictures, not measurebating.

Where I'm at, the phrase is NPNT (No Picture, No Talk).
BTW you do have a Pentax camera don't you?

That was uncalled for.

Ben

[johnsherwood]

A couple of people have suggested that the K20 appears softer( focus )with certain lenses..........I'm not sure that makes sense?

Are they using the AF adjustment feature to 'fine tune' each individual lens......I found that 2/3 of my lenses required AF adjustment ( not all the same +/- adjustment value either ) and now are VERY sharp and don't require additional stopping down vs my K100.

Not sure if I buy the 'lenses aren't good enough for 14.6MP sensor' argument.

JS

[joele]

Actually I know in the Nikon camp many have found the 12mp FF D700 great for lenses, it is so forgiving that a lot of the so called faults seen on high pixel density sensors are gone.. E.G. Purple fringing in bright lenses like the 85 1.4 and 1.8 is not present and mid range lenses like the 70-300mm seem a lot sharper. This is easy to explain as a 100% crop from the D700 compared to a 100% crop from a D90 is demanding a lot less from the lens... The 100% sharpness is obvious, but I think the reduction in problems like PF which are dependant on the combinations of lens and sensor is appealing... Of course their FF are now going >20MP so no chance that people get to savour this advantage for too long ;-)

[jbinpg]

Actually I know in the Nikon camp many have found the 12mp FF D700 great for lenses, it is so forgiving that a lot of the so called faults seen on high pixel density sensors are gone.. E.G. Purple fringing in bright lenses like the 85 1.4 and 1.8 is not present and mid range lenses like the 70-300mm seem a lot sharper. This is easy to explain as a 100% crop from the D700 compared to a 100% crop from a D90 is demanding a lot less from the lens... The 100% sharpness is obvious, but I think the reduction in problems like PF which are dependant on the combinations of lens and sensor is appealing... Of course their FF are now going >20MP so no chance that people get to savour this advantage for too long ;-)

I have no D700 experience. But I have owned both the K10D and the K20D and I have to try hard to make the K20D show any purple fringing with any of my lenses. The K10D had lots of PF problems at bright contrast boundaries. The K20D sensor design has better gating to prevent sensor bloom.

Jack

[pentaxmz]

Once you start shooting RAW all the time, you'll develop a workflow in which selected files get batch converted to JPEG anyhow. I'm absolutely serious when I say that it takes no more additional time to convert a RAW to JPEG than it does to press the RAW button in the first place - a fraction of a second either way. It's only people who msotly shoot JPEG who need an extra step to handle RAW files. Once you start shooting RAW all the time, you'll probably find it's more work to handle an occasional JPEG, as it interrupts the workflow.

...Although, I forget - you are using the Pentax software. That *does* limit you pretty severely in workflow. I'd go so far as to say shooting mostly RAW isn't worth the extra hassle if you are forced to use the Pentax software, but with better software, it's the other way around: it's JPEG that isn't worth the extra hassle.

Hi Marc,

If I were still working as a Pro, I would agree with you 100%. But I think my requirement is perfectly valid considering that my requirements are 50% RAW and about 50% JPG only.

What camera are you talking about? I thought you had a K20D? My K200D definitely has the option to go from RAW to JPEG, and I didn't think the K200D had any features above and beyond the K20D.

Yes, I own the K20D.

From the RAW button menu, I see the following options:
JPEG -> RAW+
RAW -> RAW+
RAW+ -> RAW+ This last option is puzzling.

The camera is currently set for RAW only.

Like I stated, I would be so happy if the RAW button had a [temporary] option of
RAW -> JPEG. Are you suggesting that such a configuration is possible on the K200D?

Take care!

[robgo2]

I'm surprised that no one has referenced the camera comparometer at Imaging Resource. It allows the side by side comparison of cameras shooting identical or very similar images. Just choose K20D in one column and D300 in the other, and look at the images at full size, as I just did. Without any doubt whatsoever, the K20D beats the D300 in fine detail, and it isn't even close. A blind person could see the difference. I think that this difference would show up in moderately sized prints, not just huge prints. Perhaps the results are attributable to the lenses that were used on each camera, but since that information is not given, one can only judge by the evidence available, and Pentax wins hands down. Bottom line: The 14.6MP in the K20D is not overkill.

Here is the link to the comparometer page: Imaging Resource "Comparometer" ™ Digital Camera Image Comparison Page

Rob

[robgo2]

I might add that the K20D also beats the highly regarded D700, at least at ISOs up to 400. This is pretty impressive stuff.

[joele]

I might add that the K20D also beats the highly regarded D700, at least at ISOs up to 400. This is pretty impressive stuff.

umm OK I tried that D700 vs K20d and I used "still-life ISO 100" and look for example at the crayola box and crayons with each.. not to knock the k20d at all, but you really think the K20d looks better than the D700, even at ISO 100???

to save people time

D700 - http://75.126.132.154/PRODS/D700/FULLRES/D700hSLI00100.JPG

K20d - http://75.126.132.154/PRODS/K20D/FULLRES/K20DhSLI0100.JPG

just for fun

D90 - http://75.126.132.154/PRODS/D90/FULLRES/D90hSLI0100.JPG

Of course this is just pixel peeping to the extreme and a little pointless as they certainly didn't use the same lens on every camera (not to mention possible processing differences).. I just thought the quoted statement was worth investigating a little further!

[ozzi-paul]

In regards to the RAW button, the only option (on firmware 1.00) is RAW+ (creating a RAW AND a JPG)... there is no option to switch to creating just a JPG.

There is a way, I have my k20d set up like this. (with standard firmware)
Press menu button, go to Rec Mode and scroll down to RAW button.
Scroll right, then down to jpeg, scroll right again and select jpeg.
do the same for each setting.
you will end up with :- JPEG > JPEG
RAW > JPEG
RAW+> JPEG
Press OK.
Now when you press the RAW button you can take a JPEG.
In the RAW Button menu, tick the box cancel each time and you camera will
switch back to RAW capture after 1 Jpeg image has been shot.

[audiobomber]

The K20D photos at Imaging Resource are not directly comparable at high ISO to other DSLR"s because they are taken at default settings. The K20D default setting is NR off. Default Canon and Nikon noise reduction is heavier than the K20D set to Strong.

IOW, the only way to compare K20D settings to the other cameras in its class is to download the photos from the Comparometer and add NR.

[falconeye]

but you really think the K20d looks better than the D700, even at ISO 100???

I made your test. Look at the center, "Mas Portell". You'll see the K20D wins hands down. If it doesn't in the corners, then maybe focus isn't optimal or the corner resolution of the lens isn't up to the task...

[Marc Sabatella]

If I were still working as a Pro, I would agree with you 100%. But I think my requirement is perfectly valid considering that my requirements are 50% RAW and about 50% JPG only.

Elsewhere I thought you said you were looking at going primarily RAW. If you do that, and use better software than PPL, you will find JPEG more trouble than it's worth. But if you're already dealing with the hassle of two different workflows and using PPL for RAW, then indeed, you're better off shooting JPEG when possible.

From the RAW button menu, I see the following options:
JPEG -> RAW+
RAW -> RAW+
RAW+ -> RAW+ This last option is puzzling.

Those are three different options for one setting - those are the different settings you can control individually. That is, you can control what effect the RAW button has on JPEG, RAW, and RAW+ modes *individually*. The second item on the list controls what the button does if you are currently in RAW mode, and the current setting is to change to RAW+, but you can change that. Simply select the second item and hit the right arrow button. You will see that you can JPEG, RAW, or RAW+. I actually have "RAW" selected, so that hitting the RAW button while in RAW mode has no effect for me. I did this because I found that sometimes I would accidentally press the button (or perhaps it would press itself in my bag) and I'd be shooting JPEG without realizing it. So I've basically disabled the button. Looks like that's how your camera is current set up to behave when in RAW+ mode.

[pentaxmz]

A couple of people have suggested that the K20 appears softer( focus )with certain lenses..........I'm not sure that makes sense?

Are they using the AF adjustment feature to 'fine tune' each individual lens......I found that 2/3 of my lenses required AF adjustment ( not all the same +/- adjustment value either ) and now are VERY sharp and don't require additional stopping down vs my K100.

At the risk of appearing totally lazy (YES, RTFM!), where is this valuable feature?

One of my MZ-S lenses (Sigma) works beautifully.... but my Tamron's focus is consistently soft at a fully opened aperture.

Not sure if I buy the 'lenses aren't good enough for 14.6MP sensor' argument.

JS

Unless there is something really special and strange about CMOS sensors, that I am not aware of, I completely agree with your statement.

[nostatic]

At the risk of appearing totally lazy (YES, RTFM!), where is this valuable feature?
.

Well, considering that you didn't know how to set the Raw button to give you jpg, perhaps RTFM is a good idea

It is in the custom setting menu, iten 35 - "AF Adjustment"

Change it to on, then you can set for individual lenses. Of course they have to be AF lenses

[pentaxmz]

I'm surprised that no one has referenced the camera comparometer at Imaging Resource. It allows the side by side comparison of cameras shooting identical or very similar images. Just choose K20D in one column and D300 in the other, and look at the images at full size, as I just did. Without any doubt whatsoever, the K20D beats the D300 in fine detail, and it isn't even close. A blind person could see the difference. I think that this difference would show up in moderately sized prints, not just huge prints. Perhaps the results are attributable to the lenses that were used on each camera, but since that information is not given, one can only judge by the evidence available, and Pentax wins hands down. Bottom line: The 14.6MP in the K20D is not overkill.

Here is the link to the comparometer page: Imaging Resource "Comparometer" ™ Digital Camera Image Comparison Page

Rob

Although it is a interesting and perhaps clever site, I would not trust it for an accurate and 'scientific' comparison of cameras. It is quite clear that the comparisons are not strict and controlled. Sometimes exposure, ISO, focus, lenses (ESPECIALLY LENSES), and other settings differ enough to make unfair comparisons.

DPReview and Steve's are far better for getting the real facts about the various cameras.