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01-23-2009, 09:44 PM   #16
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Sigh..

QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
The problem is not that I don't get it, the problem is that I don't agree with you.

Don't think too highly of yourself.

:ugh:
I don't think in any way "high" of me. But I can see that you disagreed mainly because of you have some basic misconcepts. As I have already explained and explained again and again. And each time I responded directly to your arguments and points (but it seems that you haven't looked too much about my explanations), I had to opt not to "discuss" further and also I have no more to amend, for those technical stuff (I have tried all my best to do so already).

Facts are nothing that need agreement or disagreement. Re-read my statements and go figure yourself. As I said for times, the design and logics are easily verified. If you could find any of my statements on the design facts and how the Pentax cameras work are not correct. Please point out!

01-23-2009, 09:58 PM   #17
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There is something in this that has not been considered, most especially not by RiceHigh. Yes, Pentax has a Multi-Segment metering mode that favours the center, since that is where, presumably, most people put the main subject of the image. I think this is a natural default.

And then Pentax gives us the option that RiceHigh thinks is useless, because Canon does not do the same. That is, the option to give more priority to the AF point when using Multi-Segment metering.

And why would we wish to turn this option on? Why, because we are using an AF point that is not in the centre. This is the true value of the setting, for those that need it. Metering will be biased towards where we are focusing but still take into account the rest of the image! The same thing cannot be accomplished with other metering modes.

Only Pentax gives you this choice, based on their superior knowledge of the options some photographers want.
01-23-2009, 11:18 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
There is something in this that has not been considered, most especially not by RiceHigh. Yes, Pentax has a Multi-Segment metering mode that favours the center, since that is where, presumably, most people put the main subject of the image. I think this is a natural default.
Didn't I already mention what you have said from the very beginning in my blog post?

QuoteQuote:
And then Pentax gives us the option that RiceHigh thinks is useless, because Canon does not do the same. That is, the option to give more priority to the AF point when using Multi-Segment metering.
This "option" is redundant. The camera should read all the AF point all the time and decides how these data should be taken into consideration. And, the mode of AF chosen by the user should also be taken into consideration.

How practical is this "option" when the user changes the mode(s) of operation and then need to also update the CF settings?

QuoteQuote:
Only Pentax gives you this choice, based on their superior knowledge of the options some photographers want.
Choice is only meaningful if it is useful. Not so for the case of Pentax. The worst thing is even the default option is not the best and fool-proof!
01-23-2009, 11:34 PM   #19
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[QUOTE=RiceHigh;461999]Didn't I already mention what you have said from the very beginning in my blog post?



This "option" is redundant. The camera should read all the AF point all the time and decides how these data should be taken into consideration. And, the mode of AF chosen by the user should also be taken into consideration./QUOTE]

And this is specifically what you continue to not understand, Mr. Ricehigh: Please tell me how the AF system will tell the camera which of those focus points the *user of the camera* wants to be the main point of focus? It is the *user* that tells the camera what to do. This has been Pentax's philosophy forever and it is the right choice for those photographers who wish to think about what and how they are shooting.

Jack

01-24-2009, 01:23 AM   #20
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[QUOTE=jbinpg;462006]
QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Didn't I already mention what you have said from the very beginning in my blog post?



This "option" is redundant. The camera should read all the AF point all the time and decides how these data should be taken into consideration. And, the mode of AF chosen by the user should also be taken into consideration./QUOTE]

And this is specifically what you continue to not understand, Mr. Ricehigh: Please tell me how the AF system will tell the camera which of those focus points the *user of the camera* wants to be the main point of focus? It is the *user* that tells the camera what to do. This has been Pentax's philosophy forever and it is the right choice for those photographers who wish to think about what and how they are shooting.

Jack
Read all the words before your responded. Don't extract just a sentence and interpret yourself.

The option is redundant since if as you suggests, say, the user select a particular focus point and that should taken into account by the evaluative metering's algorithm, IF it is cleverer). But NOT ask the user to set in a custom function to say if it should be either counted or not counted for that factor!

I always emphasized all data, no matter AF mode, point selected, multi-segment values, subject distances should all be taken into account for a thorough and complete analysis. Why you guys must insist those data have conflicts between each others? (Just because Pentax must do no wrong and should always be the best??)

The evaluative metering algorithm of Pentax DSLRs have much room for improvement since it is very stupid, IMHO. It just does thing in an "Either / Or" way, that says if the "Link AF point to AE is enabled", all the weights are put in the "corresponding" metering segments (but look back in my blog post for the misalignment issue, please). On the other hand, if the CF is not enabled, the weight will be *always* put in the centre. The worse is that it is even more stupid to not learn what AF point selection mode the user has selected, which should be done *automatically*, but not via a so-called Custom Function.

My Canon 5D knows well what AF mode and point(s) I or the camera have selected and the evaluative will be taking all those into account automatically, even in the E-TTL II flash mode!
01-24-2009, 06:29 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
The option is redundant since if as you suggests, say, the user select a particular focus point and that should taken into account by the evaluative metering's algorithm, IF it is cleverer). But NOT ask the user to set in a custom function to say if it should be either counted or not counted for that factor!
You keep saying the same thing over and over. Pentax should not give us an option to do things two ways when obviously the only divine correct way was chosen by Canon.

We think you're wrong. Because photographers are different and photographic situations are different.

You say we just don't understand.

Maybe you'll get bored of this some day? I know I am. I reply only to be sure you do not lead others astray with your opinions you masquerade as fact.

But you have done one positive service: you have convinced me to write an article on the same subject that is more informative, less confusing and far less biased. This I will post in time.
01-24-2009, 08:16 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
You keep saying the same thing over and over. Pentax should not give us an option to do things two ways when obviously the only divine correct way was chosen by Canon.

We think you're wrong. Because photographers are different and photographic situations are different.

You say we just don't understand.

Maybe you'll get bored of this some day? I know I am. I reply only to be sure you do not lead others astray with your opinions you masquerade as fact.

But you have done one positive service: you have convinced me to write an article on the same subject that is more informative, less confusing and far less biased. This I will post in time.
All I discussed and pointed out is about the technical and design differences which are facts. Of course, designs from different brands/models are compared and facts are pointed out.

If you want to get it personal and brand emotional, I am sorry to see that and I have no more to discuss with you.

I have made my repeated elaborations, come with many examples - for the sole aim of wanting to clarify the technical details and make them clear. If you don't read but only want to argue (just because of I am me, a guy named RiceHigh), I have no more to say.
01-24-2009, 08:46 AM   #23
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QuoteQuote:
I don't think in any way "high" of me. But I can see that you disagreed mainly because of you have some basic misconcepts.
What are these misconcepts you're talking about? I think you and I understand fully the way these Cf work and how they interact... but we have differing OPINIONS about their usefulness.

QuoteQuote:
Facts are nothing that need agreement or disagreement. Re-read my statements and go figure yourself. As I said for times, the design and logics are easily verified. If you could find any of my statements on the design facts and how the Pentax cameras work are not correct. Please point out!
You confuse FACTS with OPINIONS.

We understand both the design facts of both Canon and Pentax systems. Your OPINION is that the Pentax way of doing things is misguided and confusing. I have the opposite OPINION: I find it flexible and useful, moreso than the Canon way of doing things: how's that for a fact?

Our facts are the same but our opinions differ, stating your opinion 1000 times doesn't make it any stronger, nor a fact that I would have to acknowledge.


One fact though: when I try taking a picture of my wife and kid on the sofa with my 5D, if I select a focuing point on my (black) wife, my (whitish) son is overexposed. If I select a focusing point on my son, my wife is underexposed.

If I get my incident light meter out it gives me perfect exposure.

If I use my K20, no matter what I choose as a focus point, I get a correct exposure.

These are FACTS.

My OPINION based on these FACTS is that I prefer the Pentax's way of doing things.

Is that so difficult to understand or accept?

01-24-2009, 11:51 AM   #24
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It's nice to see others banging their head on the ricewall......
01-24-2009, 12:41 PM   #25
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if you don't respond to RH, he won't post as much. And certainly don't click on the links to his ridiculous blog. All that does is raise him in the google rankings. It is obvious (to me) that he is a Canon fanboy who likes to impersonate an "impartial" journalist. His "facts" are opinions at best, and his opinions are fueled in his desire to get a response. I'm sure it tracks back to issues from his childhood. For some reason he has anointed himself as the savior for Pentax, and evidently views it as his higher calling to point out their problems in order to save them.

And remember, whenever you respond to one of his posts, a puppy or kitty dies. Please, do it for the fluffy kitties and cuddly puppies. Don't hit the reply button!
01-24-2009, 02:15 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
And remember, whenever you respond to one of his posts, a puppy or kitty dies. Please, do it for the fluffy kitties and cuddly puppies. Don't hit the reply button!
Damn!! I feel like a mass murderer!!...
01-24-2009, 06:14 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
if you don't respond to RH, he won't post as much. And certainly don't click on the links to his ridiculous blog. All that does is raise him in the google rankings. It is obvious (to me) that he is a Canon fanboy who likes to impersonate an "impartial" journalist. His "facts" are opinions at best, and his opinions are fueled in his desire to get a response. I'm sure it tracks back to issues from his childhood. For some reason he has anointed himself as the savior for Pentax, and evidently views it as his higher calling to point out their problems in order to save them.

And remember, whenever you respond to one of his posts, a puppy or kitty dies. Please, do it for the fluffy kitties and cuddly puppies. Don't hit the reply button!
So, why do you respond? I just wish you did not hit the "reply" button for being go off-topic and nothing on the technical issue.
01-24-2009, 06:31 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
What are these misconcepts you're talking about? I think you and I understand fully the way these Cf work and how they interact... but we have differing OPINIONS about their usefulness.

You confuse FACTS with OPINIONS.

We understand both the design facts of both Canon and Pentax systems.
Nope. Our understood "facts" differs. This is the reason why our "opinions" do differ.

QuoteQuote:
Your OPINION is that the Pentax way of doing things is misguided and confusing. I have the opposite OPINION: I find it flexible and useful, moreso than the Canon way of doing things: how's that for a fact?
I have been emphasizing on the algorithms used in Pentax and Canon and their differences and you have been emphasizing on options. So, here we go (again and again).

I appreciate much your kind attitude for clearing thing up and finding the real by civilised discussion. I really hope that I could explain clearly this time. So, here it is:

1. I do *agree* that the option opened by Pentax for the four combinations is *good*!

2. But, Canon DSLRs don't need two options as necessary as Pentax as they have pre-program better for each of these two for making better default settings or to make the evaluative metering clearer, namely:

(i) My Canon 5D knows what focusing point mode I select, auto or manual, single or multiple (when the camera decides) and take all them into accounts as a whole - no need to tell the camera via custom function (each time I change the mode);

(ii) My 5D set "AE locked upon AF locked" automatically in Evaluative metering whereas in CWA and Spot, it is left in unlinked between AEL and AFL. I do agree I miss the feature of Pentax for being able to customise to lock these two even in the CWA and Spot mode as I use central AF point mostly. But Canon have thought the issue well also.

QuoteQuote:
Our facts are the same but our opinions differ, stating your opinion 1000 times doesn't make it any stronger, nor a fact that I would have to acknowledge.
See above.

QuoteQuote:
One fact though: when I try taking a picture of my wife and kid on the sofa with my 5D, if I select a focuing point on my (black) wife, my (whitish) son is overexposed. If I select a focusing point on my son, my wife is underexposed.
Not really, my experience is the Pentax DSLRs is the same. Try focus on the black object and if you do not recompose and the black subject will be weighted more and then you focus on the white subject then the subject will be weighted more. Pentax works better for you is possibly just a *coincidence* just because when you recomposed the central segment point to some areas which is not of extreme refectance, i.e., black or white.

But if the central segment after recomposition does point to a very different brightness level, e.g. when your wife and son are backlit and after recomposition the central segment pointed to the very bright background, then both of them will be underexposed much, that's the problem and why I prefer to have the AE value locked once AF locked, just because the user can recompose after the AF lock(ed).

QuoteQuote:
If I get my incident light meter out it gives me perfect exposure.
Of course when you average out all the subjects with different reflectance. Actually switching either your K20D or 5D into CWA mode will do no difference.

QuoteQuote:
If I use my K20, no matter what I choose as a focus point, I get a correct exposure.

These are FACTS.
Not really facts, but just personal experiences.

And, contrary to your experience, I found that the evaluative metering of the Canon is more reliable than the Pentax's - my experiences then of course: still not facts, I know.

QuoteQuote:
My OPINION based on these FACTS is that I prefer the Pentax's way of doing things.

Is that so difficult to understand or accept?
I think I have explained fully above. I hope I could really really make it totally clear this time. Sorry for any poor English and previous misunderstandings created thereafter just in case if the words I used to express the technical stuff and details are not clear and exact enough.
01-25-2009, 05:25 AM   #29
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QuoteQuote:
Nope. Our understood "facts" differs. This is the reason why our "opinions" do differ.
The rest of your message just proves otherwise...

I
QuoteQuote:
have been emphasizing on the algorithms used in Pentax and Canon and their differences and you have been emphasizing on options. So, here we go (again and again).

I appreciate much your kind attitude for clearing thing up and finding the real by civilised discussion. I really hope that I could explain clearly this time. So, here it is:
Thanks!

QuoteQuote:
1. I do *agree* that the option opened by Pentax for the four combinations is *good*!
Ditto!


QuoteQuote:
2. But, Canon DSLRs don't need two options as necessary as Pentax as they have pre-program better for each of these two for making better default settings or to make the evaluative metering clearer, namely:

(i) My Canon 5D knows what focusing point mode I select, auto or manual, single or multiple (when the camera decides) and take all them into accounts as a whole - no need to tell the camera via custom function (each time I change the mode);
You are right, if you let the camera decide, Canon's approach is better (and more robust) than Pentax's one. My point is that Pentax's one is better if you want to make your own choice. It's in that sense that I prefer having more options.

QuoteQuote:
(ii) My 5D set "AE locked upon AF locked" automatically in Evaluative metering whereas in CWA and Spot, it is left in unlinked between AEL and AFL. I do agree I miss the feature of Pentax for being able to customise to lock these two even in the CWA and Spot mode as I use central AF point mostly. But Canon have thought the issue well also.
Well then, it appears we both miss those "useless" options on our Canons



QuoteQuote:
Not really, my experience is the Pentax DSLRs is the same. Try focus on the black object and if you do not recompose and the black subject will be weighted more and then you focus on the white subject then the subject will be weighted more.
In my experience (no recomposition at all: camera on tripod the all time), if you choose not to link AE to AF, this doesn't happen, the exposure is completely independant of the chosen AF point.

QuoteQuote:
Pentax works better for you is possibly just a *coincidence* just because when you recomposed the central segment point to some areas which is not of extreme refectance, i.e., black or white.
OK, let's call it a coîncidence then... and you're right, I tend to avoid puting any area of extreme reflectance in the center of the frame, be it with a Canon or Pentax.

QuoteQuote:
But if the central segment after recomposition does point to a very different brightness level, e.g. when your wife and son are backlit and after recomposition the central segment pointed to the very bright background, then both of them will be underexposed much, that's the problem and why I prefer to have the AE value locked once AF locked, just because the user can recompose after the AF lock(ed).
If my subject is on a very reflective background or backlit, then it is 100% certain that Canon's default will give you a better result than Pentax default... I have never said anything different. But in most other situations, this will not be the case.

QuoteQuote:
Of course when you average out all the subjects with different reflectance. Actually switching either your K20D or 5D into CWA mode will do no difference.
Incident light meters do not average all the subject's reflectances, they just measure the quantity of light falling on your subjects, hence they are independant of your subjects reflectances.


QuoteQuote:
Not really facts, but just personal experiences.
If you prefer that terminology...

QuoteQuote:
And, contrary to your experience, I found that the evaluative metering of the Canon is more reliable than the Pentax's - my experiences then of course: still not facts, I know.
I'll give you that, when one understands how the system works, it is very reliable and I have no problem getting perfect exposure with Canon's evaluative metering. I just use some +-EV compensation when the focus point I select is on a light/dark subject. But then again, I almost never had to do this with my Pentaxes, except in the case of strongly backlit situations (+EV).


QuoteQuote:
I think I have explained fully above. I hope I could really really make it totally clear this time. Sorry for any poor English and previous misunderstandings created thereafter just in case if the words I used to express the technical stuff and details are not clear and exact enough.
Most of your points are well taken. I agree with all your facts and just want to introduce the notion that, once you've understood the way both systems work, one should not have any difficulty using them to take nicely exposed pictures.

My take on this (Warning! Opinion ahead!) is that Canon's system is very cleverly design and will "automatically" work in many situations but is less flexible than Pentax's one when you know what you want.
01-25-2009, 12:09 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I am sorry to see that and I have no more to discuss with you.
Excellent!
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