Vertical Pattern Noise, sensitivity test

Jonas B · 03-21-2007, 08:13 PM

VPN:

The topic has been discussed a lot at the DPR forum. I have tried to understand VPN and the technical reasons for it. While doing so I also have understood that we, all digital camera users, see different things in pictures. Well, that's not hard to guess but it seems as some see VPN and some do not.

I have started a thread at DPR where I ask people to look at at six pictures and reply and let me and anyone know which of the pictures that show VPN. If you are registered over there and not totally fed up by the topic, please have a look there and let the world know more about how we perceive things.

Test: Are you VPN sensitive?: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Thank you,

Last edited by Jonas B; 03-21-2007 at 08:14 PM. Reason: forgot the link...

carpents · 03-22-2007, 05:42 AM

Good e-mail.

You're right, too.

Cideway · 03-22-2007, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by carpents

Good e-mail.

You're right, too.

Cheers, i notice that my old mate UltraWide didn't pick up my stuff up in the last paragraph, it was ment to read "higher ISO" not "higher aperture".

Rener · 03-22-2007, 04:10 PM

RE: VPN,

#1 bit noise in the dark area but no VPN
#2 none
#3 none
#4 none
#5 none
#6 none

I don't know if it's my eyesight or my flat screen CRT monitor, I really don't notice any VPN that may attract my attention. Very nice test though.

Cheers,

Rene R

Dana G · 03-22-2007, 05:38 PM

Has anybody tested all this alleged noise by making prints? After all, a print is still the main object of most photographs.

Personally, unless I'm pushing a badly underexposes image, I've never had a problem. And printing underexposed film gives you pretty marginal results as well.

slip · 03-22-2007, 05:45 PM

I don't see any either.
I would say don't worry to much about it, since prints are what really count in the end.
I do see a bit of noise, likely from higher ISO.

cheers

randy

Dana G · 03-22-2007, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by slipchuck

I don't see any either.
I would say don't worry to much about it, since prints are what really count in the end.
I do see a bit of noise, likely from higher ISO.

cheers

randy

You'll see lots of noise/grain from high ISO film as well as digital. There's no such thing as a free lunch!

**Mallee Boy** · 03-22-2007, 05:59 PM

Hi Jonas,
Didn't someone post a test chart with stripes on dpr some months back?

Then, as now, my Toshiba laptop monitor shows "something" in verticle stripes in the noisy background on No's 3 & 5, and to clarify that, on a first look I see nothing, but of course being told there is something there...one keeps looking....and I think its a "yes" I can see something.
However on my LG monitor it is even less visible.

Cheers
Grant

Jonas B · 03-22-2007, 06:12 PM

Let me second that.

Jonas B · 03-22-2007, 06:17 PM

I may have missed that test chart thing Grant. The pictures in the "test" are choosen as they are not strange or pushed test charts. I think that's more interesting.
I am interested in the "scientific" part of it as well but more interested in real world photos.

I'm also very much interested in pushing Pentax to fix this in the next model - then I can get back to use Pentax!

Jonas B · 03-22-2007, 06:19 PM

I have posted a reply to everything in the thread over at DPR. I'm sorry for not expressing myself more clear: I never intended to have the discussion at both places simultaneously. Sorry for the confusion.

walter · 03-22-2007, 09:05 PM

Here's a few real world pictures where you may or may not see VPN. These are JPEG's straight from the camera except for the resizing. The VPN is definitely visible if you increase the brightness / exposure, but I think whether you see it in these pictures depends a lot on your monitor and ambient light levels (it'll be more visible on the 1800x1200 images).

K10D | 21mm | f/3.2 | ISO 800 | 1/4 sec | 1800x1200

K10D | 21mm | f/3.2 | ISO 800 | 1/5 sec | 1800x1200

K10D | 21mm | f/3.2 | ISO 1600 | 1/5 sec | 1800x1200

K10D | 21mm | f/3.2 | ISO 800 | 0.6 sec | 1800x1200

K10D | 21mm | f/3.2 | ISO 100 | 5 sec | 1800x1200

**Mallee Boy** · 03-22-2007, 09:05 PM

No confusion...well at least I think not

I have no doubt the pentax people are getting all sorts of feedback on various issues at the moment and I'm sure the K10D.2 will be even better.
But for now I'm still happy with the Ds and see no case for change. :ugh:

Jonas B · 03-22-2007, 09:43 PM

Thank you Walter. I wish one or two of your pictures had been there in my little "test". I like the feet in the second picture...

And yes, I can see the VPN in all of them, that's how sensitive I am... I may throw in a link to your post over there if you don't mind. Or you may post one yourself.

Jonas B · 03-22-2007, 09:45 PM

Grant, I have high hopes for the K10D2 (K11D, K20D, whatever). There is something very appealing in many of the K10D pictures that I envy, especially thinking of gradations and B&W work. regards,

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03-21-2007, 08:13 PM	#1
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810	Vertical Pattern Noise, sensitivity test VPN: The topic has been discussed a lot at the DPR forum. I have tried to understand VPN and the technical reasons for it. While doing so I also have understood that we, all digital camera users, see different things in pictures. Well, that's not hard to guess but it seems as some see VPN and some do not. I have started a thread at DPR where I ask people to look at at six pictures and reply and let me and anyone know which of the pictures that show VPN. If you are registered over there and not totally fed up by the topic, please have a look there and let the world know more about how we perceive things. Test: Are you VPN sensitive?: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review Thank you, Last edited by Jonas B; 03-21-2007 at 08:14 PM. Reason: forgot the link...

03-22-2007, 05:42 AM	#2
carpents Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: West Chester, PA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,420	Hey, Cideway! Good e-mail. You're right, too.

03-22-2007, 06:03 AM	#3
Cideway Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Adelaide, South Australia, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 364	Originally posted by carpents Good e-mail. You're right, too. Cheers, i notice that my old mate UltraWide didn't pick up my stuff up in the last paragraph, it was ment to read "higher ISO" not "higher aperture".

03-22-2007, 04:10 PM	#4
Rener Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 292	RE: VPN, #1 bit noise in the dark area but no VPN #2 none #3 none #4 none #5 none #6 none I don't know if it's my eyesight or my flat screen CRT monitor, I really don't notice any VPN that may attract my attention. Very nice test though. Cheers, Rene R

03-22-2007, 05:38 PM	#5
Dana G Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Masachusetts Posts: 243	Has anybody tested all this alleged noise by making prints? After all, a print is still the main object of most photographs. Personally, unless I'm pushing a badly underexposes image, I've never had a problem. And printing underexposed film gives you pretty marginal results as well.

03-22-2007, 05:45 PM	#6
slip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 2 hours north of toronto ontario canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,535	I don't see any either. I would say don't worry to much about it, since prints are what really count in the end. I do see a bit of noise, likely from higher ISO. cheers randy

03-22-2007, 05:50 PM	#7
Dana G Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Masachusetts Posts: 243	Originally posted by slipchuck I don't see any either. I would say don't worry to much about it, since prints are what really count in the end. I do see a bit of noise, likely from higher ISO. cheers randy You'll see lots of noise/grain from high ISO film as well as digital. There's no such thing as a free lunch!

03-22-2007, 05:59 PM	#8
Mallee Boy Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,904	Hi Jonas, Didn't someone post a test chart with stripes on dpr some months back? Then, as now, my Toshiba laptop monitor shows "something" in verticle stripes in the noisy background on No's 3 & 5, and to clarify that, on a first look I see nothing, but of course being told there is something there...one keeps looking....and I think its a "yes" I can see something. However on my LG monitor it is even less visible. Cheers Grant

03-22-2007, 06:12 PM	#9
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810 Original Poster	Let me second that.

03-22-2007, 06:17 PM	#10
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810 Original Poster	I may have missed that test chart thing Grant. The pictures in the "test" are choosen as they are not strange or pushed test charts. I think that's more interesting. I am interested in the "scientific" part of it as well but more interested in real world photos. I'm also very much interested in pushing Pentax to fix this in the next model - then I can get back to use Pentax!

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03-22-2007, 06:19 PM	#11
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810 Original Poster	I have posted a reply to everything in the thread over at DPR. I'm sorry for not expressing myself more clear: I never intended to have the discussion at both places simultaneously. Sorry for the confusion.

03-22-2007, 09:05 PM	#12
walter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: California Photos: Gallery Posts: 239	Here's a few real world pictures where you may or may not see VPN. These are JPEG's straight from the camera except for the resizing. The VPN is definitely visible if you increase the brightness / exposure, but I think whether you see it in these pictures depends a lot on your monitor and ambient light levels (it'll be more visible on the 1800x1200 images). K10D \| 21mm \| f/3.2 \| ISO 800 \| 1/4 sec \| 1800x1200 K10D \| 21mm \| f/3.2 \| ISO 800 \| 1/5 sec \| 1800x1200 K10D \| 21mm \| f/3.2 \| ISO 1600 \| 1/5 sec \| 1800x1200 K10D \| 21mm \| f/3.2 \| ISO 800 \| 0.6 sec \| 1800x1200 K10D \| 21mm \| f/3.2 \| ISO 100 \| 5 sec \| 1800x1200

03-22-2007, 09:05 PM	#13
Mallee Boy Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,904	No confusion...well at least I think not I have no doubt the pentax people are getting all sorts of feedback on various issues at the moment and I'm sure the K10D.2 will be even better. But for now I'm still happy with the Ds and see no case for change. :ugh:

03-22-2007, 09:43 PM	#14
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810 Original Poster	Thank you Walter. I wish one or two of your pictures had been there in my little "test". I like the feet in the second picture... And yes, I can see the VPN in all of them, that's how sensitive I am... I may throw in a link to your post over there if you don't mind. Or you may post one yourself.

03-22-2007, 09:45 PM	#15
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810 Original Poster	Grant, I have high hopes for the K10D2 (K11D, K20D, whatever). There is something very appealing in many of the K10D pictures that I envy, especially thinking of gradations and B&W work. regards,