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03-22-2007, 11:31 PM   #1
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Dust Removal System Shootout

I have seen this has been posted at various other forums recently but not here. So, I make the post and here it is:-

Review: Dust removal systems / sensor cleaning - Pixinfo.com

As quoted:

"Dust removal conclusion

Here is our ranking according to effectiveness:

1. Olympus: good
2. Canon: poor (we are disappointed)
3. Pentax and Sony: useless (we are very disappointed)"

Also, in the field, as quoted:

"Pentax K10D

Part of the reason we started to organize this test was that we had a bad experience with the dust removal system of Pentax K10D that we had for our review.?Although the amplitude of the CCD movement is quite high (one can feel the shake on his hand), the frequency is rather low."

Hope you find the info interesting and useful!

I hope that the next Pentax DSLR should have a totally new design of DR system instead of the cloned useless Sony design! Actually, Pentax have filed a patent of their own for a vacuum air suction design which sucks dust particles out of the camera body! I bet by using their own design of this, the dust removal effectiveness will be close to air-blower and this will blow away the Olympus's design in effectiveness.

Some days if Pentax really adopt their own original design, I bet probably it will work, instead of the DR in the K10D which is considered to be useless, and, not working as what is marketed and claimed, which of course is undoubtedly very disappointing to many users.

03-23-2007, 12:03 AM   #2
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I think this whole test is pretty much a pile of stinky poo because I for one have never had dust on my sensor since I've had the K10d but I've had plenty of dust on my mirror and even on the focusing screen becuase I tend to change lenses a lot and in not so great of conditions so where is all the dust? I've set the camera to always use the DR system and for 2 months I've never spotted a speck of anything on the sensor nor in any of my pictures. These tests only prove that if you abuse your sensor expect to use a blower to remove everything. The only proof I have is real life use and this guy even said that canons is poor and I can visibly it see not get any better but worse after the cleaning so why does it get a ranking higher than sony's or pentax's? Again more foolish testing that proves that the camera is smarter than the person testing it.
03-23-2007, 12:34 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
I think this whole test is pretty much a pile of stinky poo because I for one have never had dust on my sensor since I've had the K10d
Well maybe you have not had dust, but I have had this happen twice in 5 months... and the built in shaker did not work at all. However a quick puff with the mirror locked up, and the dust was gone.

It will happen, and it is easy to fix.. I am not worried about dust really, take care changing lenses, a quick puff of air on the new lens to make sure it has no dust seems to work.

Always keep the caps on, and a tip I heard from a long time digital user, and he got it from a Nikon tech rep, ALWAYS TURN OFF THE POWER BEFORE CHANGING LENSES. According to this report, it reduces the static attraction generated by removing a lens.

Whatever works.. I read that report a couple of days ago, was not surprised.. Think about it, what does a speck of dust weigh, and the inertia of that speck is the technique the DR used to remove it?? Makes no sense really.
03-23-2007, 01:06 AM   #4
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I don't think the test is "a pile of stinky poo" as the test is carried out in the same conditions and the amount of shaked off dust particles are counted.

As all cameras are tested under identicial controlled conditions and the test procedures are the same, I would say it is fair enough to draw up the conclusion as they reported.

As for whether dust is a real problem for our use, I think there would be another issue.

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
I think this whole test is pretty much a pile of stinky poo because I for one have never had dust on my sensor since I've had the K10d but I've had plenty of dust on my mirror and even on the focusing screen becuase I tend to change lenses a lot and in not so great of conditions so where is all the dust? I've set the camera to always use the DR system and for 2 months I've never spotted a speck of anything on the sensor nor in any of my pictures. These tests only prove that if you abuse your sensor expect to use a blower to remove everything. The only proof I have is real life use and this guy even said that canons is poor and I can visibly it see not get any better but worse after the cleaning so why does it get a ranking higher than sony's or pentax's? Again more foolish testing that proves that the camera is smarter than the person testing it.


03-23-2007, 01:09 AM   #5
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I do agree that the problem does exist and the DR function is not effective or not working at all.

But actually Pentax do have a real secret weapon, which they have not put it into any of their DSLRs yet:-

esp@cenet document view

For more of this explained and the reason why I think it is superior, see this for further read:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: A Shootout between Dust Removal Systems

QuoteOriginally posted by matix Quote
Well maybe you have not had dust, but I have had this happen twice in 5 months... and the built in shaker did not work at all. However a quick puff with the mirror locked up, and the dust was gone.

It will happen, and it is easy to fix.. I am not worried about dust really, take care changing lenses, a quick puff of air on the new lens to make sure it has no dust seems to work.

Always keep the caps on, and a tip I heard from a long time digital user, and he got it from a Nikon tech rep, ALWAYS TURN OFF THE POWER BEFORE CHANGING LENSES. According to this report, it reduces the static attraction generated by removing a lens.

Whatever works.. I read that report a couple of days ago, was not surprised.. Think about it, what does a speck of dust weigh, and the inertia of that speck is the technique the DR used to remove it?? Makes no sense really.
03-23-2007, 02:04 AM   #6
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WTF? Given that the blowing method is the best still - the Pentax and Sony win! Obviously the K10D flourine CCD coating and whatever Sony uses are very effective.

Stupid test.
03-23-2007, 05:40 AM   #7
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Have been using an Olympus E300 for over 1.5 years. Have never had dust problem. The DS had dust fairly often. Doing a lot of shooting at small apertures really shows it up ( do lots of macro). The K10D has been around since start of December. No dust yet. Don't have it on auto clean. Have used the shake only 2-3 times. So the K10D does work better than the DS.
thanks
barondla
03-23-2007, 06:17 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
I think this whole test is pretty much a pile of stinky poo because I for one have never had dust on my sensor since I've had the K10d but I've had plenty of dust on my mirror and even on the focusing screen becuase I tend to change lenses a lot and in not so great of conditions so where is all the dust? I've set the camera to always use the DR system and for 2 months I've never spotted a speck of anything on the sensor nor in any of my pictures. These tests only prove that if you abuse your sensor expect to use a blower to remove everything. The only proof I have is real life use and this guy even said that canons is poor and I can visibly it see not get any better but worse after the cleaning so why does it get a ranking higher than sony's or pentax's? Again more foolish testing that proves that the camera is smarter than the person testing it.
Well, you're very lucky that you haven't *seen* (that doesn't mean you haven't had) any dust on your sensor. However dust isn't seen at open aperture. Try to close aperture and take a picture of some evenly painted wall, sky etc. Something without texture. I bet you'll see a lot of dust on your sensor.

The test completely confirms my observations. Shaking based dust reduction system is completely ineffective. At the beginning I was keeping DR on camera start turned on, however when after a few days I've got a couple of dust pieces on sensor and shaking sensor didn't help at all, I turned it of and started regularly use air blower. Much much more effective than built-in solution. That special sensor coating really makes it easy to blow dist off.

03-23-2007, 06:21 AM   #9
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IMO, in camera dust removal systems are just a gimmick. Learn how to clean your own sensor, its one of the most useful things you will ever learn.
03-23-2007, 09:36 AM   #10
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QuoteQuote:
I don't think the test is "a pile of stinky poo" as the test is carried out in the same conditions and the amount of shaked off dust particles are counted.

As all cameras are tested under identicial controlled conditions and the test procedures are the same, I would say it is fair enough to draw up the conclusion as they reported.

As for whether dust is a real problem for our use, I think there would be another issue.
Maybe you think they are good tests, but I especially don't believe someone who can honestly say that the canoncs had any sign of imporvement, he's just another biased tester who has nothing better to do.


QuoteQuote:
Well, you're very lucky that you haven't *seen* (that doesn't mean you haven't had) any dust on your sensor. However dust isn't seen at open aperture. Try to close aperture and take a picture of some evenly painted wall, sky etc. Something without texture. I bet you'll see a lot of dust on your sensor.

The test completely confirms my observations. Shaking based dust reduction system is completely ineffective. At the beginning I was keeping DR on camera start turned on, however when after a few days I've got a couple of dust pieces on sensor and shaking sensor didn't help at all, I turned it of and started regularly use air blower. Much much more effective than built-in solution. That special sensor coating really makes it easy to blow dist off.

I've haven't "seen" any at any aperature and yes I've been through pretty all of them in last few days actually and I spend a lot of time digging deep into a photo looking for things, it's part of my job, and I dare someone to turn DR system on at every start and see if there is any difference over time. The sticky pad under the sensor and the flourine coating should catch most if not all of the dust and I've seen this with my abuse of the camera day in and day out. I take over 600 pictures a week and change lenses probably over a couple dozen times in a day depending on what I'm doing and I've yet to find a single speck of dust on the sensor, but have had to clean the hell out of my mirror and focusing screen. So i'm guessing someone is going to tell me that I've just been lucky that the dust got stuck before it got to the sensor right?


I just don't understand why people have to test things to prove they aren't effective instead of just taking pictures and having fun, that is why we paid 500 dollars less for our camera and still got all the bells and whistles of the big guys because we like to take pictures with good equipment and talk about what awesome features we have not to search for things that make it suck and mope around about it. Unless there is a big error like all the pictures come out looking like crap why complain? I don't think R&D people go yes this works but not really so if you feel like slapping the DR label on it go ahead.
03-23-2007, 09:55 AM   #11
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Sorry if I seem so harsh but it seems pointless to keep digging into what doesn't work or if it works instead of enjoying taking pictures.

I'm outtie on this topic.
03-23-2007, 05:07 PM   #12
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I'm amazed that some people have not had a dust problem. I've had my K100D since November and it has not been spot free since shortly after purchase. At first I thought it was technique, so I cleaned it with a squeeze bulb and read all the hints about lens changing. Still, it was spotted within a few more changes. I ordered a Giotto based on advice here and it works well, leaving only one or two spots. I now clean perhaps every 4-5 lens changes.

I do astrophotography, long focal lengths combined with software designed to find subtle brightness changes thus I may be more sensitive than most. I remove them with flats taken with a light box. But, if I take a daytime photo that has a lot of blue sky I can see the spots as well. I decided to buy a K110D for astronomy reducing the exposure of the K100D and allowing me to modify a camera for astro only.

It is a livable problem, my SBIG astro camera always has assorted spots and it is airtight, dried with desiccant, and cooled. Hmmm, now that I own a Giotto maybe I should open it up for a cleaning with the Rocket!
03-23-2007, 05:21 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeoTaylor Quote
I'm amazed that some people have not had a dust problem. I've had my K100D since November and it has not been spot free since shortly after purchase. At first I thought it was technique, so I cleaned it with a squeeze bulb and read all the hints about lens changing. Still, it was spotted within a few more changes. I ordered a Giotto based on advice here and it works well, leaving only one or two spots. I now clean perhaps every 4-5 lens changes.

I do astrophotography, long focal lengths combined with software designed to find subtle brightness changes thus I may be more sensitive than most. I remove them with flats taken with a light box. But, if I take a daytime photo that has a lot of blue sky I can see the spots as well. I decided to buy a K110D for astronomy reducing the exposure of the K100D and allowing me to modify a camera for astro only.

It is a livable problem, my SBIG astro camera always has assorted spots and it is airtight, dried with desiccant, and cooled. Hmmm, now that I own a Giotto maybe I should open it up for a cleaning with the Rocket!
I think your last paragraph says it all.

Most people don't consider it a problem, because it usually isn't one. I've had dust.. but I've never had a dust *problem*.. because it isn't a problem. It's a fact of photography life, you learn to clean your sensor, and you get on with life. Now.. were dust accumulating at the rate of having to clean my sensor every day, or gunking on so bad I couldn't clean it.. *THAT* would be a problem
03-23-2007, 06:07 PM   #14
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OK, so the Pentax K10D dust removal system ranks equal last (in that test), ....?
You may or may not be interested to know that I really don't care .

I purchased my Pentax *ist DS over the Olympus E300 some two years ago, knowing full well the dust issue, which really wasn't an issue because some homework revealed that dust could be easily cleaned off.

Advice from users of other dslr owners was to use care & common sense when changing lens', and yes I have had dust and the rocket blower is the best $20 I have spent in awhile.

Sorry, but I still see no reason to change my original decision . No issue, lets move on.
Grant
PS...but thanks for letting us know Michael.

Last edited by Mallee Boy; 03-23-2007 at 06:12 PM. Reason: typo & PS
03-23-2007, 06:31 PM   #15
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Dumb and dumber--again and ...

Again and again and again.

Did you put your e-mail address on the list of every crackpot wannabe scientist or engineer on the planet? Or do you go out of your way to find the dumbest science possible and hope to make it significant by simple repetition?

This test and its results are so pitiful that they leave no room to be anything but ludicrous and absurd. Four cameras, 1 each from the major brands; a pile of sand and a couple cleaning cycles (each) does NOT make enough 'data' to laugh at.

But keep at it Chicken Little; the more you crow and cackle the easier it becomes to ignore you.
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