[MoiVous]

Thanks - much appreciated. I know this is still off topic from the op, but one more question (b/c I'm in desperate need of new batts) - since they're NiMH, I can use my standard NiMH charger, right?

I got my first lot of Eneloops with a Sanyo charger, but from what I can tell, its the same as any NiMH charger. However, to get the best charge you need a good quality charger - preferably not a fast one!

There are a few threads about batteries and chargers somewhere with lots of detail.......have a search for batteries to find a lot more......

[cpopham]

Canon and Nikon users are quick to point out that shake reduction isn't that necessary in shorter focal lengths, which is generally true. However, I wonder how many hand held, free standing (non-braced) shots they've taken at 18mm and 1.5 seconds?

People are quick to point out that SR won't help when your subject is moving... but what if you're TRYING to get subject motion blur....





That photo was taken with my older K100 Super and a DA 40mm lens (f4.5, 1/6 sec) in the London underground. Tripods are forbidden there, so you need IS to get the static elements sharp. I was on the platform edge, where there is no wall I could have braced against. Sure, Canon has a single L zoom with IS in that range (and Nikon has nothing other than consumer zooms), but I'll bet you they attract a lot more unwanted attention than an innocuous prime...

Oh, and the shake reduction in a K200 is supposedly better than in a K100 too, so...

[madbrain]

Ah, flash. That's another matter entirely.

Well, I don't really view at as separate . The camera, its exposure meter and the flash are supposed to work together to find the correct combination of exposure values and proper flash power to adequately expose the shot. And they don't really do that. The result is underexposed shots.

I haven't tried many other cameras in the same situations (certainly no other DSLR), but I don't remember having this kind of problems with my previous P&S. I do remember plenty of blurry indoor shots in lowlight with the P&S, though, but not underexposed .

[madbrain]

Would these eneloop things be ene-use (see what I did there? ) in my flashgun? I've had really poor performance from brand new AA cells (the flash often reporting low battery straight away) and of course being rechargeables the eneloops are lower voltage, 1.2v instead of 1.5v.

Yes, I use the eneloops for both the K200D and the Digital concepts 952AF external flash. They work very well. When newly charged, the recharge time is the fastest I have seen of any other AA batteries. But that flash is a power hungry device, more so than the camera itself. I don't expect more than about 200 flashes at full power before I have to swap the batteries. That's why I always carry at least 8 spare eneloops - 4 for the K200D, and 4 more for the flash.

[ll_coffee_lP]

First - buy the one that feels the best in your hands. If it isn't comfortable to use you are less likely to use it. If that happens - you shouldn't have bought one in the first place.

Second - Once you do choose on a camera - hang out with us on the forums. We'd love to see your work, and we all enjoy learning from each other.

Good luck!

c[_]

[madbrain]

Thanks - much appreciated. I know this is still off topic from the op, but one more question (b/c I'm in desperate need of new batts) - since they're NiMH, I can use my standard NiMH charger, right?

thanks!
steve

Yes, you can use any NiMH battery charger with the eneloops.
However, if you buy the Costco eneloop kit, they throw you one, and spacers, basically for free - if you buy the 10 eneloop batteries alone, it costs about the same as the Costco kit. That sanyo charger is not the best charger as it charges the batteries in pairs which is less than ideal, but it is dual voltage which is great for international travel.

Personally, I invested in a MAHA C9000 charger because I have tons of older non-eneloop NiMH batteries, and that charger can accurately tell the bad batteries from the good ones using its discharge features, capacity meter, and digital display. I am slowly replacing all my older NiMH cells with eneloops.

[Marc Sabatella]

Well, I don't really view at as separate . The camera, its exposure meter and the flash are supposed to work together to find the correct combination of exposure values and proper flash power to adequately expose the shot. And they don't really do that. The result is underexposed shots.

I guess what I meant is, when I said you would never get underexposure of 2 stops, I meant, you wouldn't get this when actually metering off the scene. Flash metering introduces all sorts of variables that can indeed lead to wildly bad exposures.

Although FWIW, most of the time, use of the onboard flash using default settings leads to *overexposure* (the old nuclear-blast-in-the-face look), not underexposure. I have -0.5EV flash compensation permanently dialed in for just this reason. I can't recall ever getting an underexposed flash picture except when it happened for obvious reasons - subject too distant for selected aperture/ISO, object in foreground reflecting flash and thus fooling the camera into not using as much output as it should, etc. But I have no trouble believing there are cases cases where the reasons for the underexposure would be less obvious, and if I used flash more than a couple of times a year, I'm sure I'd run into those cases.

[Edward B.]

Sorry for the long reply time. I'm having problems with my Internet provider.

What is your budget? Can you swing a K20d? Different ballpark but figured I'd ask.

Yeah, my budget is very entry level. I've found places to purchase from that I trust. I can pick up a K200D with kit lens for around $550-$600 and a XSi for maybe $100 more. That's pretty much my initial budget.

being the owner of a k10d, i wish i would have gotten the 40D... the k10d suffers from horrible dynamic range and even worse white balance in tungsten light. the 40D is beautiful (so is the rebel). while the k200 and k20d both have enhanced dynamic range, i think i'd still go with the canon over it because of the ease of finding cheap lenses, better dynamic range, and far superior white balance imo. if you can swing the 40d, i think you then get the weather sealed body, but i'm not sure how important that is to you.

this is just an honest post from a current pentax camera owner. don't flame me

Thanks for the feedback. Kinda backs up what I've heard: that the XSi generally produces better looking pictures.

what are you shooting the most?
and what lens are thinking to get?

Good questions. I don't think I can give you a definite answer on either, as I'll be shooting around for the first time in about two years. I would anticipate a little bit of everything. I'm most interested in shooting candid people, but I don't know how much opportunity I'll get for that. I'd also like to try some portrait photography and sports/action photography (local high school sports, and there is a local professional wrestling promotion that I'd like to shoot... right now they have no one taking pictures except for friends and family with point and shoots).

Lenses.... To be honest with you, it's going to be the kit lens for a while because of money. Depending on how much use I've gotten out of the camea in 6 months to 1 year, I'd like to pick up a 70-300 telephoto. Although I think there are more veratile ones out there with a max range of 300 but a smaller minimum range? It that's the case, I'd pick that up first. I don't see myself picking up more two or three additional lenses, at least not in the near future. And probably a flash at some point down the road.

If you just want to point and shoot and not think about exposure, a DSLR is not the right camera, IMHO. But based on what you've said about your background, I don't think that's you.

Thanks for all your comments Marc. I plan on shooting manual 90 percent of the time – I want to learn and get better, that's why I'm buying a DSLR. But I'd also like to know the camera can produce nice results outside of manual if need be (like family gathering, etc., where I just want to make sure I get good pictures). It sounds like you can get just about any result you'd like by messing around with the default settings, which is good to know. I wish I could have spent a few hours with the camera instead of 10-15 minutes.

I may be remembering this wrong but I think the Canon may have some sort of Live View, while the K200D probably doesn't. Don't know if this is important to you.

Not conerned about Live View.

Pentax seems to like applying very low levels of noise reduction to the images coming out of its cameras. This means that there is less fine detail, but more visible noise. Again, this can be configured to some degree.

I hope you meant that there is more fine detail, but more visible noise. I agree that the inclusion of an ISO button would be iffy if you are not shooting manual, but I plan on shooting primarily manual.

First able, you came to a Pentax forums, I don't expect you will get many responses in favor of the Canon. That said, I'm a K200D owner for about 9 months, and I will respond to your concern.

Yeah, I know. Problem is I have experience with Canon DSLR myself and have found no shortage of people who use Canon, but I have had a hard time finding Pentax users. I was going to post on DP Review as well, but I wasn't able to sign up because of their email requirements, which is a problem because of my access problem right now. That said, if you know of any other good sites out there where I could get some feedback from people who may have used both cameras, let me know!

-Will I be fine with the lens system? Pentax has some excellent lenses (especially primes), but if you ever want to get involved in wildlife photography, Canon has the edge on long lenses
-Will I be fine with 3 frames per second? If you decide to stick with Canon, you can upgrade bodies to get a 6.5FPS (40/50D) and keep your existing lens invesment.
-Any desire to go Full-frame? Again, Canon has the edge here (for now at least)

I would possibly like to get involved in wildlife photography further down the road, but by wildlife I mean maybe taking pictures of birds or deer at a local state park, not shooting lions at the Serenghetti.

I think I'd be fine with 3 fps just because I've never really shot continuous frames like that. A case of I don't really know what I'm missing, so it doesn't bother me.

I have to admit my ignorance on the full frame issue. You're referring to a more professional camera that allows you to see the entire image you are capturing and not 95-96 percent of it? Or am I way off base here?

Thanks for the help and thoughts everyone. I appreciate it. As I said, there are several minor problems I have the K200D vs. the Rebel, but the camera felt so much more comfortable in my hands that it's making me lean towards the Pentax.

On one hand, that sounds kind of stupid to me, because I shot with a Rebel before and did fine, and I'm sure I'd grow accustomed to the XSi as well.

One question I've always had about Pentax is if the manufacturer produced good equipment that is on par with Nikon and Canon, why do almost no professional photographers shoot with Pentax? A moot point in my decision, but I am curious.

I understand Nikon is the preference for most portrait/model photographers, and Canon for wildlife and sports, but I have never met one professional photographer – wedding photographer, journalist, portrait studio, anyone – who uses Pentax. Is Pentax's "niche" pretty much amateur hobbyists?

[Marc Sabatella]

Thanks for the feedback. Kinda backs up what I've heard: that the XSi generally produces better looking pictures.

I don't think that a fair assessment of what the person to whom you were responding to was saying. His main criticism was the the AWB setting doesn't work too well in tungsten light. So, don't use that setting in tungsten light. Aside from making basic mistakes like choosing the wrong WB setting for the situation, I still say, there is no differences between the images from the cameras worth talking about. The quality of the lenses, the skill of the photographer - these make a *far* greater difference. Don't believe me? Check out, say, the Pentax Photo Gallery, look at the images from K200D, and ask yourself if you *really* would expect to be improve on those if only you had a better camera.

Thanks for all your comments Marc. I plan on shooting manual 90 percent of the time – I want to learn and get better, that's why I'm buying a DSLR. But I'd also like to know the camera can produce nice results outside of manual if need be (like family gathering, etc., where I just want to make sure I get good pictures).

Oh, sure. I'm not talking about the difference between shooting manual and using an auto mode - I'm talking about knowing what you're doing even when using an auto mode. like, when shooting someone silhouetted against a bright sky, you need to dial in exposure compensation, or else meter off the ground first, lock exposure with AE-L, then shoot. This is basic common sense stuff - or at least, common if you've read anything about photography.

In general, Canon is more likely to blow highlights than Pentax in an effort to get a brighter exposure by default, but if you like that approach, then you can switch your K200D to center-weighted metering instead of multi-segment and it too will be happy to produce brighter pictures at the expense of blown highlights.

One question I've always had about Pentax is if the manufacturer produced good equipment that is on par with Nikon and Canon, why do almost no professional photographers shoot with Pentax? A moot point in my decision, but I am curious.

The main reaosn is that Canon & Nikon provide a greater range of really high end lenses (eg, ones that cost thousands of dollars), and there is a greater support network in terms of places to *rent* lenses and so forth. Plus, it becomes a sort of self-fulfilling thing: because existing pros shoot Canon & Nikon, newcomers tend to follow in their footsteps.

I suspect another part of it is that Canon & Nikon were quicker to embrace autofocus back when that was new, and quicker to embrace digital when that was new. Pentax had a somewhat bigger presence before that.

I understand Nikon is the preference for most portrait/model photographers, and Canon for wildlife and sports, but I have never met one professional photographer – wedding photographer, journalist, portrait studio, anyone – who uses Pentax.

Talk to some landscape photographers using film - Pentax medium and larger film systems are pretty big in that world.

[cpopham]

I hope you meant that there is more fine detail, but more visible noise. I agree that the inclusion of an ISO button would be iffy if you are not shooting manual, but I plan on shooting primarily manual.

Ah, yes sorry, I did mean more fine detail! That'll teach me to rush posts in my lunch break!

[Blue]

I was facing this dilemma late last May when looking for a body for improved macro platform. I have an EOS 10s film camera with macro lens and ring light. We have a N. d70s and 105mm micro Nikkor at the lab. I wanted to move beyond the 6mp limitation in digital so I considered the newer Rebel series because I'd be able to use my lens although I wouldn't be able to use the light. The d70s isn't my personal gear so that was not an option. I ended up returning to my Pentax roots. I inherited the Canon anyway. I got the K200d and 4 months later got the k20d. I like them both.

I am going to get around to selling the Canon macro setup incluing the elusive Tamron EOS adaptall 2 mount. I hung on to it because I thought I'd add a second digital body, either an *ist DS or Rebel XT but the second body ended up being a K20d.

The bottom line is that I'd make the same decision if picking between the best Rebel and K200d. All the minutia between the 2 has been previously covered. However, the weather/dust sealing and in camera shake reduction are pluses not to mention the "Legacy" lens aspect considering my modest collection of SP Tamron Adaptall 2 lenses and Pentax glass.

[alderfall]

"I understand Nikon is the preference for most portrait/model photographers, and Canon for wildlife and sports, but I have never met one professional photographer – wedding photographer, journalist, portrait studio, anyone – who uses Pentax."

I don't think I would agree with these assessments. I hate generalizations, as do most folks I think. I know plenty of wedding, protrait studios and journalists who use Canon equipment. Of all the pro shooting friends I have out there I think around 60% of them are Canon in fact. Most of those folks do not shoot wildlife or sports professionally. Nikon makes up the next 30% in this area, with much of that leaning towards journalism. The other 10% use something specific to their field (including a couple guys who shoot using Sigma bodies). I do know one pro who shoots freelance as a career (tough to make it that way anymore, I guess) using a Pentax setup.

I don't know that I will ever consider myself a pro, regardless of how much money I make or how many photos I take. I consider myself a work in progress, always attempting to transcend my past efforts and abilities. But, I shoot Pentax and I do weddings (and hate them), provide photos on a freelance basis for media outlets and shoot an ever increasing amount of portraits (not to mention my fine art landscapes). As mentioned before, the camera is a tool. the best place you can put yourself is in the mindset that it is a tool that you will weild as best as you can, but don't expect it to do the work for you.

Regardless of badge, you can take a decent photo with at least 5 different brands of camera out there right now. Some will require more work than others, but isn't much of the point to photography (and all other things that really matter in life) is that it's a learning experience? If the camera does its job, you don't physically ache while using it , and you are willing to invest in the equipment you need, you can focus on getting good, better and then, ultimately maybe you will feel happy with all your shots (or at least most)

[Edward B.]

That's one thing I forgot to ask a question about, the weather sealing.

Just what does that mean, exactly? I understand how it's sealed and that it makes dirt and dust less likely to get into the camera, but what kind of conditions could I reasonably expect to operate the camera under without damaging it?

Dust being kicked up at a rodeo?

A light rain?

Snow?

I know the kit lens is not weather sealed. How much will this devalue the sealing on the body?

Marc – thanks for the feedback on image quality. Just for the record, I am in no way claiming to be a great or even good photographer (I'd like to think "competent" but even that is probably a stretch). I also understand that most of the differences in image quality that I'm talking about are things that will likely matter only to professional photographers. I just have a habit of looking into every little detail before I make a purchase like this. Of course, half the time it still doesn't result in making the best decision.

[alderfall]

That's one thing I forgot to ask a question about, the weather sealing.

Just what does that mean, exactly? I understand how it's sealed and that it makes dirt and dust less likely to get into the camera, but what kind of conditions could I reasonably expect to operate the camera under without damaging it?

Dust being kicked up at a rodeo?

A light rain?

Snow?

I know the kit lens is not weather sealed. How much will this devalue the sealing on the body?

Marc – thanks for the feedback on image quality. Just for the record, I am in no way claiming to be a great or even good photographer (I'd like to think "competent" but even that is probably a stretch). I also understand that most of the differences in image quality that I'm talking about are things that will likely matter only to professional photographers. I just have a habit of looking into every little detail before I make a purchase like this. Of course, half the time it still doesn't result in making the best decision.

Hello Edward...

I will tell you from my experience, I am not using a DA* lens, so the lens on my setup is not weather sealed. My K200D and I routinely hit the beaches and headlands of the pacific coast. I encounter plenty of spray and rain/wind. So far, I am not encountering trouble wth this setup. I do try to limit the amount of exposure to water to a point. But, I would say that the daily use of my K200D has been a little on the wild side.

Of course, YMMV...

[redpigeons]

buy the XSI with the kit and the canon 50mm 1.8
that's a cheap combination and you will feel safe BC everybody else have the same camera.


if you want good pictures that compeers with other good photographers today you would have to do some post work any way JPEG or RAW. no picture looks as good out of the camera

its like printing film in a one hour photo booth Vs spending hours in a pro lab.

but before you ran out to buy the Canon

check the pentax photo gallery then go and buy canon