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03-27-2007, 08:15 PM   #1
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K10D arrived, having issues...

Greetings again,

Sorry, this is my second thread, and both related to questions about my camera and lens. I was hoping to be contributing something a little positive by now, but it's not working out that way.

The K10D arrived today, along with an AF 50 1.4 prime lens. I charged the battery to full, and jumped right into doing some side by side comparisons with my Canon 20D and 24-105L.

The verdict in a nutshell so far (for anyone interested that is, if you're not, skip ahead a couple of paragraphs), the K10D has slightly more noise than the 20D, but nothing to complain about. 8x10 prints of the same image taken with both cameras look nearly identical as far as noise goes. The K10D seems to have more dynamic range, handling color and detail in various areas of my test shots a little better than the 20D. I have not yet taken a K10D shot that is as sharp as the 20D / 24-105L though, and it appears to be a result of motion blur, even with in-body SR turned on. Even with the 24-105L wide open at F4, it's still very noticeably sharper than the 50 1.4 at F4 on the Pentax. I'm of course comparing at 100%. Again, 8x10 prints look very close.

The noise by itself isn't a deal breaker. The fact that I'm getting sharper images and less noise out of the 2.5 year old canon and a 4x zoom lens is concerning me though. The K10D does however have a very nice viewfinder that trumps the 20D's viewfinder, and the LCD is also much nicer. I'm growing fond of the ergonomics of the K10D pretty quickly too.

Anyhow, getting back to the point of the post, I'm getting some serious hot pixel issues all over the image. I've counted up to 7 in some images, and as little in 3 in others, but every image has them, and some stand out quite a lot. Red, green, blue, and even white, and some are larger than others. This isn't VPN, ISO noise, or anything like that. It's actual "stuck" pixels. I didn't notice them at first because Lightroom fixes these automatically, but when I tried doing some comparisons in Bibble they jumped out at me.

I updated the firmware to 1.11 but this didn't fix the problem. I'm getting these at every ISO from 100 - 1600, and at every aperture and shutter speed. I'm not using a vertical grip, and I only have the one lens (trying to cover as much as I can to eliminate potential trouble shooting questions). Most of my testing has been in Av or Sv, and TAv modes. I haven't done anything with the popup flash yet.

Is this a common problem with the K10D, am I doing something wrong, or was I just shipped a dud? This camera had firmware 1.0 on it out of the box btw.

Thanks in advance for any help on this matter. Sorry this was so wordy.


Last edited by Zon; 03-27-2007 at 08:27 PM.
03-28-2007, 02:31 AM   #2
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Hi Zon,
I have no idea how many hot/stuck pixels my camera has, as I shoot raw, and ACR fixes them. 7 does seem like a high number though. Unfortunately Pentax does not have a Pixel mapping option. You have 2 options here. Return the camera for another sample (Of course you still won't know what you'll get), or send it to Pentax to have the hot pixels mapped out(kind of sucks with a brand new camera). I'm sorry to not being very encouraging here.

For sharpness, do you have the camera still set at the defaults? If so, try going +1 on the sharpness, or try shooting in bright mode.
03-28-2007, 03:15 AM   #3
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"Hot Pixels"

Being that you just purchased the K10D, I suggest you return it for an immediate exchange. I haven't any hot pixel problems from the three bodies I own. There is no reason you should have to commence your journey with the K10D on a negative note. As to sharpening. The default settings on the Pentax are very conservative to say the least. They are intentional, allowing the photographer to sharpen in Post Prod. If shooting JPEG, I suggest you change to bright mode and just reduce the saturation to -1 or -2 and boost the the sharpness to +1 or +2 and reduce contrast to -1 or -2.

Your results will be on par or better than the 20D which I still own. I personally suggest shooting in DNG RAW in Adobe RGB for best results.

Ben
03-28-2007, 03:36 AM   #4
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Read n Learn

Hey Benjikan,.Just want u to know I personally think its great to have someone with your knowledge and background in this forum.I read all your post and have learnt alot from them.Thought id say thanx and appreciated.
P.S To the bloke with the dud camera, If he says take the camera back do it you wont be sorry,the K10d is a top camera.

03-28-2007, 04:05 AM   #5
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Assuming you are not shooting long exposures (5 secs+) you should not expect to see any hot pixels with a brand new camera so I would be inclined to return the camera. My K10D shows not hot pixels - at least none at normal hand-held speeds.

If you want to get some idea of just how many hot pixels your camera has take a number of shots in manual mode with the lens cap ON. Expose a small series at say 1/50, 1/25. 1/10, 1, 5 and 10 secs. The black background will show them up very nicely.

Most (all) cameras will show some at longer exposures but you would not normally expect them to be obvious for normal shots.
03-28-2007, 04:56 AM   #6
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I have to add a note to benjikan's comment about shooting in Adobe RGB for best results. This is generally true if you're primary output is print -- andif you do your color adjustments by making test prints. Monitors are sRGB, and you literally can't see what you're doing with Adobe RGB. So it takes more skill, time, printing, reprinting, tweaking, and reprinting. I think for many people, sRGB is the right compromise. This goes triple if you're primarily expecting pictures to be viewed online. If you're targeting both print and web, you may actually want to produce two versions color-corrected differently for the two output colorspaces.

In the future, we'll have XvYCC or some other extended-gamut as a standard and won't have to worry about this so much.
03-28-2007, 05:13 AM   #7
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I Agree...But

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
I have to add a note to benjikan's comment about shooting in Adobe RGB for best results. This is generally true if you're primary output is print -- andif you do your color adjustments by making test prints. Monitors are sRGB, and you literally can't see what you're doing with Adobe RGB. So it takes more skill, time, printing, reprinting, tweaking, and reprinting. I think for many people, sRGB is the right compromise. This goes triple if you're primarily expecting pictures to be viewed online. If you're targeting both print and web, you may actually want to produce two versions color-corrected differently for the two output colorspaces.

In the future, we'll have XvYCC or some other extended-gamut as a standard and won't have to worry about this so much.
It "IS" a major pain in the neck having to adjust the print output based on a calibration that is visually not apparent on the screen. I have compared the two outputs to print and see very little difference, but being that my work is being published in "Glossy" Trendy Press, they request Adobe RGB for maximum fidelity.
03-28-2007, 06:40 AM   #8
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Here is a link to some explainations about causes of hot pixels, banding, etc.

Digital Camera Image Noise: Concept and Types

lots of other great tutorials on this site as well

cheers

randy

03-28-2007, 06:40 AM   #9
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Hi everyone. Thank you for the feedback. I'll be sending the K10D back today. Hopefully the next one will be better.

As for RAW files, I always shoot RAW (forgot to mention this earlier). This thread brings up a couple of questions though about Pentax raw files though.

Benjkan, you mentioned shooting in Adobe RGB / DNG. What's the reason for DNG over the Pentax raw file format? While I do most of my work in Lightroom and occassionally Photoshop, I sometimes use other tools that don't yet support the DNG format. Is there a real advantage to DNG over PEF?

Also, at least for Canon, the color space setting in the camera (srgb / argb) only affected the file if you were shooting jpeg. RAW files (a sensor dump) are usually opened in whatever color space your editor is set to default to. For Lightroom it's ProFoto RGB. PhotoShop and Bibble are Adobe RGB 1998. Does setting the camera to ARGB on the Pentax affect the color space of a raw file somehow?

Lastly, for mattdm, thank you for your thoughts on the color space (srgb vs argb). You are correct, for most people srgb is fine for their work. However, I have found that for best results, especially if you're doing a lot of editing, it's best to start out with the widest color space available and largest bit depth for your editing needs. 16 Bit ProFoto RGB (Lightroom) or ARGB (Photoshop, unless you change the default to ProFoto RGB) color space will give you a lot more to work with in your editing process. As most editing is destructive (in photoshop) you want to start with the most data possible. Once you have a finalized image, you can then convert it to your desired color space and bit depth (8 bit jpeg in srgb for instance for web sites).

If you look at my site, you can probably pick out which images were edited in srgb from the beginning vs which ones were edited in a wider color space and exported to srgb after post (a tip I wish someone would have given me a while back).

Jamie Wilburn Photography

Thanks again for all the feedback. I'll post more next week when I get a replacement.
03-28-2007, 09:24 AM   #10
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To the best of my knowledge the camera color space setting only affects jpeg files, as you expected. The RAW file will be in whatever space you convert it to for editing.

I agree that there really shouldn't be any hot pixels at normal shutter speeds in a new camera. I haven't noticed any in mine yet (it's a K10D).

As far as the shapness goes, you may have a dud sample of the lens you are using, or there could be something wrong with the shake reduction system I suppose. Have you tested on a tripod with shake reduction turned off? Personally, I have been very impressed with the sharpness of my camera with the Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 XR Di at f/3.5 to f/5.6 (and it's not bad at f/2.8).

Last edited by CFWhitman; 03-28-2007 at 09:31 AM.
03-28-2007, 09:59 AM   #11
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CFWhitman,

Thanks for the reply. I didn't try a tripod shot, but the lens box was smashed beyond belief when it arrived yesterday, to the point where UPS had to retape the box before it arrived here. I suspect this is probably the reason for the focus issues. The camera itself I'm hoping is a fluke. I've sent them both in for refunds. B&H is closed untli the 11th, so I won't get a refund until mid-April, but I intend to try again locally at that time.

Until then I'll keep the Canon gear and dream about the viewfinder and LCD on the K10D. Really going to miss that for the next few weeks...

Just as an aside, B&H has the K10D for $919, or $879 if you get it bundled with the 2GB SD card. No brainer right? Well if they happen to ship you a dud, and you try to return it, they won't accept the memory card back and end up charging you for it.

I asked them to explain how they could sell the K10D for $919, or $40 less with a free memory card, and he said the camera sells for $850, not $920. When I pointed it out to him on the web site, he was unable to explain this to me, but he said the price was $850. So in the end, I spent $879 on the camera, and I'm getting back $849. If I had just spent $919 on the camera without the memory card, I'd be getting back $919. Wacky stuff. Totally off topic, but I just thought I'd share. I've never had an issue like this before with B&H. Just something to keep in mind for anyone looking to buy a K10D.
03-28-2007, 04:33 PM   #12
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Zon

B&H should be open Thursday Friday even Sunday. They are not scheduled to close until Monday April 1st.

Bummer about the K10D.

On color space one thing that might make a difference is at RAW capture if you shoot in sRGB the camera is capturing in a smaller gamut than AdobeRGB. Changing the color space later from sRGB to AdobeRGB does shift the color as the original capture did not have the wider gamut to work with in essence changing the color space the extra gamut is being filled with information that did not exist in the original capture.

Changing sRGB files to AdobeRGB in general does shift the color to red. RAW files do allow for a lot of changes but one that it does not is ISO. If you mistakenly shoot say in ISO800 you can not change it to ISO100 later on. There may be a little of this going on with color space as well.

Just some added thoughts on the subject.

Last edited by Rico; 03-28-2007 at 04:43 PM.
04-21-2007, 04:20 PM   #13
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Mee too

Last Wednesday, after doing my first "low light" shoot with the K10D (5th Grade Daughter's Chorus at the School's Auditorium), I noticed a couple of "strange" pixels, sure enough were identified as "stuck", "crosses" or whatever you would like to call them.

I went ahead and did all the tests, etc. that I could find online, and I had a count of 7. At all ISOs and at all speeds. In highly saturated pictures at lower ISO values it was a bit more difficult to spot them, but still there.

I must admit I came across them once trying a demo version of Bibble (recommended by a friend). I would never have noticed them with Adobe ACR and PS CS2. They are there also in the JPEGs - I was shooting RAW+JPEG since the beggining.

Bummer - I could not sleep from Thursday to Friday after reading all of th eposts here. Finally I called B&H on Friday and got an RMA. Sent it in, it should be in their Brooklyn, NY depot by Monday.

Fingers crossed for the next one. I hope it gets here before next weekend. We have a School Variety Show and a Concert for my two older ones, where they play a Piano Dueto by Clementi.

I hope to get "Benji" pixel-lucky and have none...

EZ - cameraless for the weekend.
:-(
04-21-2007, 05:29 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zon Quote
The fact that I'm getting sharper images and less noise out of the 2.5 year old canon and a 4x zoom lens is concerning me though.

Since several others have commented on the stuck pixels, I'll move on to your comment about getting "sharper images and less noise out of the 2.5 year old Canon." Have you tried getting "sharper images and less noise" at 10.2 megapixels with the 8.2 megapixel Canon?

Things have changed in the years since you purchased that Canon. Higher common image resolution is one of those changes, as is the pursuit to achieve better images at those higher resolutions. The K10D, at this moment in time, compares reasonably well with other 10.2 megapixel cameras in the same general price range. In another year or two, that might change with image quality improving beyond all similar cameras of the moment. Later revisions of the K10D will incorporate those improvements, with our cameras benefiting from the non-hardware changes through firmware updates.

However, all current 10.2 megapixel cameras will eventually be replaced, likely with even higher resolution models. And the process just described will repeat itself, likely right down to owners of those cameras complaining about image quality not being as good as later revisions of the cameras now. At that point, you can hold out your Pentax and smugly say it takes better pictures - and one of them will probably just as smugly ask if it can do so at the higher resolution.

stewart
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