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02-15-2009, 09:38 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
...

1. ...Nikon lens (in particular Nikor lenses) are almost always superior to Pentax lenses (I'm sure this is going to get me into trouble but you can't argue with facts).

ROFL! They don't even think this is true in the Nikon SLR lens forum on dpreview.

02-15-2009, 09:48 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by vagrant10 Quote
Could you show me where these "facts" are After saying something like that, you should get in trouble...
Ha ha.... I knew someone would take issue with that statement.

First, nearly anyone who has been in the photography industry for more than 20 years AND has been exposed to all the major brands would agree that certain manufacturers do manufacture more consistently superior lenses when compared to other manufacturers.

That is not to say that Pentax doesn't occasionally sell an amazing lens, rather it just seems to occur more frequently with Canon and Nikon. For instance, anyone familiar with the Nikkor lens just knows that it is almost always a superior quality and world class product. BTW, I am only focused on Pentax vs Canon vs Nikon lenses and ignoring some of the other obvious' choices for superior glass, such as Leica and Konica.

Come on... this is something any seasoned photographer just knows. There is no need to get upset about my statement.

You want evidence to back this up... it is easy enough to Google this information or tabulate it yourself from any Photo magazine that reviews lenses in each issue.

One site to look at is: Which Company Makes the Best Camera Lenses?

Their ratings are based on MTF (Modulation Transfer Frequency) test. I will admit that some might argue that MTF doesn't really correlate to real-world use.

Anyhow, there are many more sites that will backup my statement.

People often ask about who makes the best camera lens, one rarely sees a Pentax lens mentioned. For example: Zoom lenses--which manufacturers are best? - Photo.net Digital Cameras Forum

Pentax is also not on this list: The 8 Best Camera Lenses Ever - Shoot The Blog

In conclusion, I never really meant to stir up this much trouble because even an average quality modern lens is very likely going to be superior to any glass made 40 years ago (just my opinion based on the superior lens making technology and coatings of today).

This site pretty much sums up my opinion: Your Camera Doesn't Matter
02-15-2009, 09:58 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
ROFL! They don't even think this is true in the Nikon SLR lens forum on dpreview.
Nikon lenses or Nikkor lenses?

Unless there is no longer a distinction between Nikon and Nikkor lenses, I specifically stated NIKKOR and what I said is still a fact based on average ratings from the 80's and 90's. At least, up until 2005, the Nikkor lens series was generally considered the best among the top camera manufacturers.

OMG... calm down people. I am not putting down Pentax and those lenses that are PK compatible. Obviously, I do not own anything Nikon.
02-15-2009, 10:44 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
Come on... this is something any seasoned photographer just knows. There is no need to get upset about my statement.
I don't think anyone is upset. They're just saying you're wrong. The only people who "know" what you are claiming are people who have not actually performed any sort of comparison. Lots of people purport to "know" things that have no basis in fact. This is one of those. Nikon makes great lenses, good lenses, average lenses, and below averages. So does Pentax. So does everyone else.

QuoteQuote:
One site to look at is: Which Company Makes the Best Camera Lenses?

Their ratings are based on MTF (Modulation Transfer Frequency) test. I will admit that some might argue that MTF doesn't really correlate to real-world use.
That's one problem with the site you mention. Another is that there are no Pentax lenses introduced in the last 15 years or so years that are even included in the comparison. The review covers a good range of Canon & Nikon lenses, but an extremely unrepresentative slice of Pentax lenses - and it excludes all of the FA limiteds, all of the DA* lenses, etc. The comparison is not worth the time it took to make.

QuoteQuote:
Anyhow, there are many more sites that will backup my statement.
No, there aren't. If there were, then I'm sure you'd be careful to list them, and produce the actual statistics and quotes from the sites that corroborate your statement.

QuoteQuote:
People often ask about who makes the best camera lens, one rarely sees a Pentax lens mentioned.
Depends entirely on who you ask. Ask someone who actually uses Pentax lenses regularly and you'll get quite a few votes for the FA limiteds. Ask someone who only knows Canon and Nikon, of course, and you'll get a different answer. Ask someone whose main experience is with rangefinders, and you'll get another answer still. No big surprise. It's also worth mentioning that the question of who makes the absolute best lenses ever has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whose lenses are better across the line, which was your actual claim.

Mind you, my point isn't that Pentax lenses *are* better. Just that is absolutely nonsense to claim that Nikon lenses are better in general. There is simply no evidence whatsoever that there is even the slight shred ot truth to this assertion. Anyone who thinks such a claim could possibly be proven about *any* manufacturer is deluded - it's far too broad and too subjective claim to be be worth even making, much less defending. Might as well argue about whether a Godzilla would beat King Kong.


Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 02-15-2009 at 11:01 PM.
02-15-2009, 11:04 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I don't think anyone is upset. They're just saying you're wrong. The only people who "know" what you are claiming are people who have not actually performed any sort of comparison. Lots of people purport to "know" things that have no basis in fact. This is one of those. Nikon makes great lenses, good lenses, average lenses, and below averages. So does Pentax. So does everyone else.
Now, now Marc, I know you to be a reasonable person and I always respect what you write. However, I do believe you misread me (or perhaps I overstated myself a bit...because of lazy writing).

However, I was speaking specifically of Nikkor lenses, not Nikon. I do believe that there is *still* a huge distinction between the two. Stating that Nikkor lenses are better than most others is akin to stating that Leica lenses are better than most. To many, these are, universal truths or perceptions (doesn't really matter because they both earn this respect). Yes, I agree there is some world class Pentax glass out there.

This all started because the OP poster was asking why his friends Nikon produced better pictures. Aside from some minor tweaking of the camera's settings, I could not help but wonder why no one asked or stressed the obvious question, "What about the lens?"... um that is after the photographers skills are dealt with. Once the camera is matched to the lens, the camera should not be at fault for a poor image!

With the lens in mind, I simply stated (perhaps too boldly ) that Nikon lenses (I later made a distinction between Nikon and Nikkor lenses) are usually better quality.

I agree that lens quality can be subjective *but* scientific method can still be applied to lenses in order to determine which is physically better product (clarity of the glass, effectiveness of the coatings, brightness, astigmatism (or lack of), etc... etc... Whether real or fact, most people (and even the public) will agree that certain manufacturers make better lenses.


And yes Marc, I can provide a larger list of references (I guess the one I did provide wasn't enough?). If you wish to see the list, I will post it in a new thread.
But I don't think it matters, especially if you are like me and you are happy with the collection of lenses you already own. At least with good lenses, it is all hair splitting anyway.

Last edited by pentaxmz; 02-15-2009 at 11:20 PM.
02-16-2009, 12:16 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
Nikon lenses or Nikkor lenses?

OMG... calm down people. I am not putting down Pentax and those lenses that are PK compatible. Obviously, I do not own anything Nikon.
Look it was an overgeneralized statement that just wreaks of oversimplification... I think the only person whose getting riled up here is you trying to defend your statement. And in the end, this discussion (and your point) really don't help the OP in getting better pictures from his camera... it's just a silly statement that you had to have known would be contentious (especially here on a Pentax site for goodness sake) that is detracting from getting the OP some help to his/her problem.... really, you should have known better.
02-16-2009, 12:27 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by vagrant10 Quote
Look it was an overgeneralized statement that just wreaks of oversimplification... I think the only person whose getting riled up here is you trying to defend your statement. And in the end, this discussion (and your point) really don't help the OP in getting better pictures from his camera... it's just a silly statement that you had to have known would be contentious (especially here on a Pentax site for goodness sake) that is detracting from getting the OP some help to his/her problem.... really, you should have known better.
You are mostly correct. I admit that I did go overboard and I must have thought it would generate some negative responses.

But be fair, I did provide useful information in my post. I shouldn't be completely condemned for one contentious paragraph (and following replies).

Anyway, I promise not to respond any further about this issue (even if it is slanderous! )
02-16-2009, 12:40 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Our eyes are very good at fooling us into thinking we're seeing white when the light is actually very highly colored. The camera is no so easily fooled. When taking pictures in strongly colored light, you do have to give up on AWB.

I don't know of any digital camera that gets AWB perfect. This is yet another reason to shoot in RAW. At least this allows one to make their own white balance adjustments.

There are many applications available for working with RAW image files but my preference is Adobe Lightroom ($299) or $129 from here:http://www.academicsuperstore.ca/products/Adobe/Photoshop+Lightroom?sourceco...FRk_awodnTiUdQ.

Lightroom is a sophisticated application and I recommend training in order to effectively use it. Two recommendations:

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02-16-2009, 12:22 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
I was speaking specifically of Nikkor lenses, not Nikon. I do believe that there is *still* a huge distinction between the two.
There may have been at one time. But aren't *all* lenses produced by Nikon called Nikkor now?

In any case, if you get to pick and choose and only compare the best of the Nikon lenses - the ones bearing the "Nikkor" name that were produced when that term meant what you mean by it - then shouldn't you be comparing to only the Limited and "*" series of Pentax lenses, or otherwise picking and choosing only the "good" ones? *Of course* the hand-selected top-of-the-line Nikon lenses will outperform the "average" Pentax lenses. And the hand-selected top of the line Pentax lenses will outperform the "average" Nikon.

QuoteQuote:
I could not help but wonder why no one asked or stressed the obvious question, "What about the lens?"
I agree, that's going to be relevant in some cases, and *if* the Nikon user was shooting high end lenses and the Pentax shooter was not, that would explain the results. But FWIW, if you actually look at the posted images and the accompanying EXIF, it's pretty clear the lens was *not* the problem - it's user error plain and simple (too slow a shutter speed, inaccurate focus).

QuoteQuote:
And yes Marc, I can provide a larger list of references (I guess the one I did provide wasn't enough?)
It isn't, for the reasons I already stated. It's ridiculous to calculate an average score without including anything Pentax produced in the last 15 years, without including a single Limited or recent "*" lens, etc. The sample size is far too small and far too skewed toward the bottom-of-the-barrel Pentax lenses.

QuoteQuote:
At least with good lenses, it is all hair splitting anyway.
Absolutely, so no, I don't think posting more data is going to be very enlightening.
02-16-2009, 03:58 PM   #25
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Opinions are like elbows (or something else), everybody has one.

Here are a couple of opinions from some respected sources.

The best autofocus lens made

Photo.net review of the DA35mm f/2.0 macro

Oh, just for kicks and giggles, here's one more where Popular Photography magazine said "This is, in fact, the single best distortion performance we've encountered since adopting the DxO system in 2005."

Pop Photo's review of the DA*200 f/2.8

So, anyone can spout "facts" just as easily as you can about Nikon/Nikkor lenses being the best.

But, like I say, gotta admire your self-confidence.

Last edited by rfortson; 02-16-2009 at 07:23 PM.
02-16-2009, 11:36 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote
Opinions are like elbows (or something else), everybody has one.

Here are a couple of opinions from some respected sources.

The best autofocus lens made

Photo.net review of the DA35mm f/2.0 macro

Oh, just for kicks and giggles, here's one more where Popular Photography magazine said "This is, in fact, the single best distortion performance we've encountered since adopting the DxO system in 2005."

Pop Photo's review of the DA*200 f/2.8

So, anyone can spout "facts" just as easily as you can about Nikon/Nikkor lenses being the best.

But, like I say, gotta admire your self-confidence.
This whole conversation is getting a bit long in the tooth.... but I couldn't help but notice that the article from LL (which I admire and respect - good link BTW) sm-02-05-02 ALSO confirms what I stated as being the general opinion of others....
I quote, "It's got to be Nikon or Canon, right? Each of these Goliaths, with their vast lens lines and cost-no object fast lenses and zooms, have won the battle of public opinion going away."

AND I quote again, "And nobody pays all that much attention to Pentax. Pentax does have some pretty pedestrian optics in its bag, it's true."

I didn't write this but it sure confirms what I had stated was popular opinion. I only bring this up because many of you jumped on me as if I was talking #$%^.

Yes, the article does go on to claim this is merely a misconception but that doesn't negate what I had written, and they are really only referring to three legendary lenses.

And finally, the author ends the article with, "But when it comes to the best autofocus lenses in the world, whether for a viewfinder camera or SLRs, it's still Zeiss and Pentax, baby, same as the old days."

How is that statement less outrageous than what I said a few days ago? Never mind, I already know the answer.

Let's all move on and believe what we want to believe... as I stated several times now, it's not really important enough to fight about. I am truly sorry I dared to say anything negative about Pentax.

Last edited by pentaxmz; 02-17-2009 at 12:52 PM. Reason: added "say" to "anything negative...."
02-16-2009, 11:43 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by wingk1314 Quote
Hi all,
I bought this little gem for more than a year already but because I was (and still am) a photography noob, I didn't quite take the time to analyse this issue.

I've been getting pictures that aren't very sharp. I don't mean that it's blurred, but when compared with say, my friends nikon, it's noticably not as sharp. On top of that, I find that there's often a stronger red being produced in most of my photos.
Especially indoors. I've tried playing around with the white balance settings but that doesn't seem to help that much.

Is this a known issue?? I'm using 16-45mm F4.0 lens by the way. This has always been bugging me. I've always thought it was due to my own lack of knowledge in using the camera but now as I get more and more familiar with this camera, I'm beginning to suspect it's an issue with the camera or lens itself.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance =)
02-17-2009, 08:49 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
I quote, "It's got to be Nikon or Canon, right? Each of these Goliaths, with their vast lens lines and cost-no object fast lenses and zooms, have won the battle of public opinion going away."
Uh, in case you misunderstood, they were offering those statements as misconceptions, whereas you mentioned it as fact. You even made the statement, "it's a fact". So, what are we supposed to believe you meant?

QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote

Let's all move on and believe what we want to believe... as I stated several times now, it's not really important enough to fight about. I am truly sorry I dared to anything negative about Pentax.
People offer negative opinions about Pentax all the time. It's another thing altogether when you say your opinion is instead a fact.

Look, this is a Pentax forum. People come here because they use and enjoy Pentax products. You aren't the first person to figure out that Pentax cameras aren't perfect. Whatever limitations may exist (and they exist with every system out there), people here are generally well aware of them and yet still choose to use Pentax. It just gets a little old to have someone at the Pentax forum constantly point out all the negatives with Pentax.

It's a little like attending someone's neighborhood party and spending the evening telling everyone why you don't like living in that neighborhood. Pretty soon, no one is going to want to talk to you. It's called tact, common courtesy, playing nice, whatever.
02-17-2009, 12:51 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
I couldn't help but notice that the article from LL (which I admire and respect - good link BTW) sm-02-05-02 ALSO confirms what I stated as being the general opinion of others....
I quote, "It's got to be Nikon or Canon, right? Each of these Goliaths, with their vast lens lines and cost-no object fast lenses and zooms, have won the battle of public opinion going away."

AND I quote again, "And nobody pays all that much attention to Pentax. Pentax does have some pretty pedestrian optics in its bag, it's true."

I didn't write this but it sure confirms what I had stated was popular opinion.
No denies that many people assume Nikon and Canon rule - sales figures make that clear enough. The point of contention is not whether people *believe* that; the question is whether or not they are *right*. Your statement implied you believed they were, Mike's implies otherwise.

QuoteQuote:
And finally, the author ends the article with, "But when it comes to the best autofocus lenses in the world, whether for a viewfinder camera or SLRs, it's still Zeiss and Pentax, baby, same as the old days."

How is that statement less outrageous than what I said a few days ago? Never mind, I already know the answer.
Of course; I think we all know the answer to that. He's overstating his case in order to make a point, and probably deliberately annoying Canon & Nikon owners in the process. No one here complains when that happens, which is indeed unfair.

On the other hand, I suspect he'd have immediately backed down if someone challenged him on this, and he'd have rephrased his claim to be something more defensible.
02-17-2009, 01:05 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote
It's a little like attending someone's neighborhood party and spending the evening telling everyone why you don't like living in that neighborhood. Pretty soon, no one is going to want to talk to you. It's called tact, common courtesy, playing nice, whatever.
I agree. Your analogy is understood and accepted.

But I can't promise not to take issue to all the misconceptions and non-Pentax bashing I often see in this forum. I'd do the same whenever a forum member needlessly puts down Pentax.

I will always remember that Pentax used to be at the top of the food chain and it would be nice to see the product line get the same respect it once had. This is really the true reason behind much of my apparent negativity.

I certainly don't have all the answers but I do know they made some mistakes and effectively shut themselves out of several disciplines of photography.

Remember, once a photographer shifts loyalties, they almost never go back.
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