[rfortson]

OP: you have a right to be mad, but there is not one person here who can make your camera work the way you want it to. Very few people here are shooting long exposures, so your problem doesn't resonate with most of us. You have a legitimate complaint, and you need to do something about it, not vent your frustration here. And I hope you learned your lesson about buying a newly released product, it's best to wait until the dust settles for the deal-breaking issues to be revealed. I've learned the hard way more than once!

Agreed. They don't call it the "bleeding edge" for nothing.

To the OP, thanks for delineating why you have an axe to grind. At least you point that out. And now people can judge for themselves whether or not Pentax is the POC that you portray them as. Judging by the roaring silence I've heard about this for the past year, I'd say it's pretty much a non-issue to the overwhelming majority of users.

[kenyee]

I'd agree w/ that as well. Pentax shafted pentaxmz when they didn't answer his DFS question but it was probably so new, it could have just been bad training.
At this point, it sounds like it means a lot to you, so I'd suggest you consider swapping it for something else, and even downgrading to a K10D unless you want to switch systems.

As for Canon's CMOS sensor, the most common complaint has been that it smeared details (the 50D. At the workshop I attended this weekend, comprised mostly of Canon shooters, the instructor (also a Canon shooter), even said Nikon's have better skin tones to the few Nikon shooters there after razzing them...
BTW, the 40D has a horrible LCD...I can't believe it's so bad at off angles and it's tiny. The newer Canon's are much better of course, and I got to play w/ a 1DmkII for a bit and it's blazing fast (and bloody hefty :-)

[pentaxmz]

Talk about a thread being hijacked with an off-topic conversation.

Anyhow, did you look into the details of this sites analysis, I think you will find that the K20D sensor is not necessary better in certain characteristics that actually matter.

However, who really cares about relatively hair-splitting numbers?

I mean no offence, and this is certainly not directed toward anyone in specific, but you would have to be an idiot to base your purchase decision on numbers from this website (especially when the differences are minimal).

What matters is how the camera works in real-world conditions. It is entirely appropriate to compare the Pentax to other brands, in terms of how it functions hot/cold weather, long exposures, sensor noise at low and high ISOs, weather sealing, shake reduction, etc. Each criterium holds a lessor or greater importance to everyone. Obviously, the perfect camera that excels in every one of the most important criteria (which grow with each generation of camera), but such a camera will probably never exist, at least, not in the under $2000 class.

However, getting back to the K20D problems, I find it disheartening that many members of this forum don't seem to be concerned or even care about those who are experiencing real problems with their Pentax cameras.

Is it just my perception that anyone who dares to speak up about flaws in Pentax products, will more than likely be chastised or belittled because they are in the 'unimportant' minority?

Whether it is the vertical lines or the Dark Frame Subtraction issue (the two biggies that I am aware of), these are legitimate problems. Some may never care about DFS, and I accept that.... but enough K20D owners have experienced the vertical lines problem that it should be a concern to all of us. What if the problem is 'lurking' in all our K20D cameras? We should be very concerned about how Pentax is handling such potential problems. What if we begin to see failures a year or two from now (when our warranties have expired).... boy, a lot of you will be crying then! I certainly hope this is an isolated issue for a very few..., but it is stupid (IMHO) to simply dismiss this problem!

Getting back to DFS, though it may not affect you.... clearly, Pentax 'covered up' the hot sensor problem in order to get the product to market as quickly as possible. Pentax is not stupid, it would be foolish to believe that the long exposure problem was planned at the design stage. I am willing to bet that there were some very angry people, at Pentax, when the engineers at Samsung and Pentax couldn't solve these problems in time.

Pentax is aware of the Astrophotography niche market... and the consequences were another loss of customers to Canon.

[pentaxmz]

Sigh, there are far too many agent provocateur types lurking who like to incite or complain with baseless comments. I'm not even sure why this thread was started if not to discredit for supposedly being "misled" twice by Pentax.

"Baseless comments...." just the problem with the attitudes of some. Because this problem doesn't affect you, you really don't care! So why did you bother to comment?

BTW, it is a real problem, you simply don't understand the issue.

[pentaxmz]

OP: you have a right to be mad, but there is not one person here who can make your camera work the way you want it to. Very few people here are shooting long exposures, so your problem doesn't resonate with most of us. You have a legitimate complaint, and you need to do something about it, not vent your frustration here. And I hope you learned your lesson about buying a newly released product, it's best to wait until the dust settles for the deal-breaking issues to be revealed. I've learned the hard way more than once!

Gary, I appreciate your comments.

I just needed to let this loose... and hopefully see how many others are affected by this issue.

I have already resolved to become less vocal about this and move forward. Consider this the last time I stand on the soap box about this issue.

[pentaxmz]

I'd agree w/ that as well. Pentax shafted pentaxmz when they didn't answer his DFS question but it was probably so new, it could have just been bad training.
At this point, it sounds like it means a lot to you, so I'd suggest you consider swapping it for something else, and even downgrading to a K10D unless you want to switch systems.

As for Canon's CMOS sensor, the most common complaint has been that it smeared details (the 50D. At the workshop I attended this weekend, comprised mostly of Canon shooters, the instructor (also a Canon shooter), even said Nikon's have better skin tones to the few Nikon shooters there after razzing them...
BTW, the 40D has a horrible LCD...I can't believe it's so bad at off angles and it's tiny. The newer Canon's are much better of course, and I got to play w/ a 1DmkII for a bit and it's blazing fast (and bloody hefty :-)

True, no sub-$2000 camera is perfect.

BUT getting back to the K20D...... I guess, in my awkward way, I am trying to say, "Damn it, Pentax could have made a PERFECT camera!!!" "Why did they screw up in such a fundamental way?"

I've invested soooo much money into the Pentax technology (camera bodies, lenses, the accessories, etc.) so no one should accuse me of being... well whatever some of you have already wrote....

[cwood]

Talk about a thread being hijacked with an off-topic conversation.

Anyhow, did you look into the details of this sites analysis, I think you will find that the K20D sensor is not necessary better in certain characteristics that actually matter.

However, who really cares about relatively hair-splitting numbers?

I mean no offence, and this is certainly not directed toward anyone in specific, but you would have to be an idiot to base your purchase decision on numbers from this website (especially when the differences are minimal).

What matters is how the camera works in real-world conditions. It is entirely appropriate to compare the Pentax to other brands, in terms of how it functions hot/cold weather, long exposures, sensor noise at low and high ISOs, weather sealing, shake reduction, etc. Each criterium holds a lessor or greater importance to everyone. Obviously, the perfect camera that excels in every one of the most important criteria (which grow with each generation of camera), but such a camera will probably never exist, at least, not in the under $2000 class.

However, getting back to the K20D problems, I find it disheartening that many members of this forum don't seem to be concerned or even care about those who are experiencing real problems with their Pentax cameras.

Is it just my perception that anyone who dares to speak up about flaws in Pentax products, will more than likely be chastised or belittled because they are in the 'unimportant' minority?

Whether it is the vertical lines or the Dark Frame Subtraction issue (the two biggies that I am aware of), these are legitimate problems. Some may never care about DFS, and I accept that.... but enough K20D owners have experienced the vertical lines problem that it should be a concern to all of us. What if the problem is 'lurking' in all our K20D cameras? We should be very concerned about how Pentax is handling such potential problems. What if we begin to see failures a year or two from now (when our warranties have expired).... boy, a lot of you will be crying then! I certainly hope this is an isolated issue for a very few..., but it is stupid (IMHO) to simply dismiss this problem!

Getting back to DFS, though it may not affect you.... clearly, Pentax 'covered up' the hot sensor problem in order to get the product to market as quickly as possible. Pentax is not stupid, it would be foolish to believe that the long exposure problem was planned at the design stage. I am willing to bet that there were some very angry people, at Pentax, when the engineers at Samsung and Pentax couldn't solve these problems in time.

Pentax is aware of the Astrophotography niche market... and the consequences were another loss of customers to Canon.

Dude

Don't quote me and then say I'm hijacking your axe-grinding session. A lot of people don't know what DXO is. When it got mentioned by another member I simply provided a link to the information. Go back and look at my post where I quote the member who brought it up.

[jct us101]

Pentaxmz, I think a lot of people are mostly irritated with you saying that Canon and Nikon have perfect cameras, because in reality they're still far from it.

[pentaxmz]

Dude

Don't quote me and then say I'm hijacking your axe-grinding session. A lot of people don't know what DXO is. When it got mentioned by another member I simply provided a link to the information. Go back and look at my post where I quote the member who brought it up.

Wow! Chill man!



I never intended anything mean spirited by my message.

If it helps, I edited the message and removed your quote. Feeling better now?

[RiceHigh]

Anyhow, I plopped down over $2000 (body and one additional lens) and so yes, I am mad! This is the second time I've been misled by Pentax. The first time was way back in 1999, when I was promised that the MZ-S would be the first film camera to have an interchangeable digital back. I invested in 3 MZ-S cameras (expecting to turn one/two into digital cameras), well the rest is history.

No one told that the MZ-S can be changed into a DSLR. I think you were not misled, but you just got mis-information.

When I got my MZ-S, I knew well it is just a *film* camera. The MZ-SD just means MZ-S Quartz Date. Well, it is a digital back but for the date imprint function to film only :-)

I certainly do not wish to make enemies so I shall make more effort to ensure not to upset the citizens in this normally peaceful community.

I think as long as you are honest to yourself and to us, it is just not a concern. You can't please anyone anyway. No matter what you say, you will have "enemies", especially when you are to share something negative. On the other hand, I would be glad to share with you what I know, or to clarify somethings..

[kenyee]

Whether it is the vertical lines or the Dark Frame Subtraction issue (the two biggies that I am aware of), these are legitimate problems. Some may never care about DFS, and I accept that.... but enough K20D owners have experienced the vertical lines problem that it should be a concern to all of us. What if the problem is 'lurking' in all our K20D cameras?

The vertical lines are IMHO a manufacturing defect.
It's not that we ignore these or say users who complain about them are idiots, we *put them in perspective*.
You and maybe one other person are the only ones I've seen complain about DFS. The vertical line issue seems to have a small sample size as well...
Contrast this to Canon's black pixel issue...or their 1DmkII AF issue...

[pentaxmz]

Pentaxmz, I think a lot of people are mostly irritated with you saying that Canon and Nikon have perfect cameras, because in reality they're still far from it.

Actually, I never actually stated that either camera body was perfect. I did state that, in general, their high-end lenses are usually better quality, and I've received a thorough lashing for that statement. However, I have worked in optics for a long time and that statement wasn't pulled out of my ......! What I stated was nothing different than what many camera experts would repeat (only when comparing Pentax, *Nikkor* not Nikon, and Canon lenses). Go ask for yourself, if you don't believe me.

But who cares? We have Pentax, we use what is available to us, and if you are willing to spend the money, Pentax makes some very nice glass (some of which are among the best). For example, I own two of the best lenses (by anyone's standard) ever made, namely the 85mm f1.8 SMC Pentax (K mount) and more recently, the SMC Pentax-DA 50-135mm F2.8 (the perfect lens for the K20D).

Furthermore, and for the record, the only [other] item I have ever labelled as PERFECT was the Pentax MZ-S camera!


Funny how there is never an arguement when I label a Pentax product as perfect....

[pentaxmz]

No one told that the MZ-S can be changed into a DSLR. I think you were not misled, but you just got mis-information.

No... I really did get some real information from Pentax. They really, truly planned to release a digital back for the MZ-S and I can prove it. I actually have a full color brochure somewhere in a box. I bet you'd be interested in a scan of this!

I can't look for it now.... but I can assure you that the MZ-S was once toted as a 'future-proof' camera. But in the end, the digital back was dropped in favour of this: http://www.aohc.it/pressrelease/MR52e.htm and http://www.imaging-resource.com/EVENTS/PMAS01/982079635.html. You should also note how it looks nearly identical to the MZ-S... which should help back up my earlier claim.

Notice that a full-frame digital camera was on the design board as far back as 2001! Imagine where Pentax might be today, if they had actually built this camera?

[jct us101]

Yeah it was planned as their first DSLR...a full frame pro body. The camera was never released, though.

But you have to remember pentaxmz, the Pentax cameras are also among the cheapest out there. I don't see bodies under $1000 from Canon or Nikon offering weather sealing, or many other the other features that cameras like the K10D and the K20D have. I'm sorry you are upset with the dark frame subtraction, if you knew about it before buying the camera, then why'd you still buy it? I'd never buy something until they have knowingly found a fix for it.

[pentaxmz]

...... I'm sorry you are upset with the dark frame subtraction, if you knew about it before buying the camera, then why'd you still buy it? I'd never buy something until they have knowingly found a fix for it.

I did state that I had specific 'confirmation' from Pentax that the K20D would not have an issue with long exposures (that was back in late 2007). Anyone, it's 'water under the bridge now', I am currently testing a Canon 50D (the DFS is that seriously a problem for me).


BTW, I promise not to write about any comparisons unless I find something that is superior in the K20D.

I don't see bodies under $1000 from Canon or Nikon offering weather sealing

But who said that the Canon 50D doesn't have weather sealing?

Under $1000? That's not fair, when/if I buy the 50D it will cost me about 20% LESS than I originally paid for my K20D. Sad but true! But 'nouf said!