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02-16-2009, 01:31 AM   #1
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An axe to grind?

vagrant10 had asked me if I had an axe to grind... so I felt it was only polite to answer this question in a new thread rather than hijacking this thread:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/51090-k20d-vs-k10d-2.html#post490947

Some people choose to 'tear me apart' for one paragraph and again, conversations got out of control and very off-topic.

Here is my response to vagrant10:

Aside from the fact that I actually do 'have an axe to grind', is there anything I stated in my message that isn't true?

Sure, I will admit that I might overstate sometimes, but I get into trouble even when I make statements that cannot be argued.

My axe to grind has solely to do with the fact that Pentax directly misled me about the Samsung sensor issue. I was one of the first to purchase the new K20D camera... back when there was little public information about the camera.

At the time, I had heard about Pentax no longer using the Sony CCD sensor, and I was concerned about their new CMOS sensor. At the time, only Canon had perfected CMOS noise reduction to the point where it was a non-issue. I had two very technical conversations with Pentax USA on different occasions, and I was assured that the K20D would outperform the Canon 40D, specifically in the applications for which I had planned to use the camera.

Either the Pentax people I had spoken with were grossly misinformed, or they lied to me. Until a few weeks ago, I had still held hope that the DFS was simply an error that would be corrected in the next firmware upgrade. However, now I know this is just a pipe dream!

Anyhow, I plopped down over $2000 (body and one additional lens) and so yes, I am mad! This is the second time I've been misled by Pentax. The first time was way back in 1999, when I was promised that the MZ-S would be the first film camera to have an interchangeable digital back. I invested in 3 MZ-S cameras (expecting to turn one/two into digital cameras), well the rest is history.


I certainly do not wish to make enemies so I shall make more effort to ensure not to upset the citizens in this normally peaceful community.


02-16-2009, 01:41 AM   #2
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Canon's CMOS sensor is nowhere near perfect. It really irritates me that they even tell you that to get best results, you have to buy $1000+ L lenses to get the best photos.
02-16-2009, 07:44 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by sflights Quote
Canon's CMOS sensor is nowhere near perfect. It really irritates me that they even tell you that to get best results, you have to buy $1000+ L lenses to get the best photos.
A statement from a person who flip flops between Pentax and Canon only because he can get one cheaper than the other and who was also banned from a Canon site I might add. Canon's CMOS sensors ARE the best in the business. Have a look at the dpreview on the image quality for the K20d verses the XSi, Pentax K20D Review: 25. Compared to (JPEG): Digital Photography Review the K20d gets owned!!! Also, you don't need L glass for good results either, EF primes and 2.8 and faster lenses from Sigma and Tamron are great too.
02-16-2009, 08:27 AM   #4
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If you're comparing sensors, why are you using a comparison of the image processing engines?

02-16-2009, 10:09 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by lostkj233 Quote
Have a look at the dpreview
Hahahaha, I'd rather become a Ken Rockwell groupie....
02-16-2009, 10:19 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by lostkj233 Quote
Canon's CMOS sensors ARE the best in the business.
I'd say "WERE" the best. Look at the DxO mark, the 3 top places are Nikon. In APS-C category, Canon is behind Nikon and Pentax ... Canon was the best because they were the only one to use CMOS sensors long before the Nikon D3/D300 came out.
02-16-2009, 10:20 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by lostkj233 Quote
A statement from a person who flip flops between Pentax and Canon only because he can get one cheaper than the other and who was also banned from a Canon site I might add. Canon's CMOS sensors ARE the best in the business. Have a look at the dpreview on the image quality for the K20d verses the XSi, Pentax K20D Review: 25. Compared to (JPEG): Digital Photography Review the K20d gets owned!!! Also, you don't need L glass for good results either, EF primes and 2.8 and faster lenses from Sigma and Tamron are great too.

Why are you a member of a Pentax forum, other than to cause trouble? I don't see any Pentax equipment in your sig, maybe it's just not updated?
02-16-2009, 10:51 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by lostkj233 Quote
Have a look at the dpreview on the image quality for the K20d verses the XSi, Pentax K20D Review: 25. Compared to (JPEG): Digital Photography Review the K20d gets owned!!!
Hum. Read the last paragraph, the differences are about the amount of sharpening applied. Comparisons between JPEGs are a bit meaningless to me. The XSi is a good camera but to say it owns the K20D... no comments

02-16-2009, 11:11 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Why are you a member of a Pentax forum, other than to cause trouble? I don't see any Pentax equipment in your sig, maybe it's just not updated?
It certainly seems that way. If/when he gets this thread locked it won't be the first time he's done so.
02-16-2009, 11:55 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Why are you a member of a Pentax forum, other than to cause trouble? I don't see any Pentax equipment in your sig, maybe it's just not updated?
From his screen name it is obvious he is "lost."
02-16-2009, 12:11 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
I'd say "WERE" the best. Look at the DxO mark, the 3 top places are Nikon. In APS-C category, Canon is behind Nikon and Pentax ... Canon was the best because they were the only one to use CMOS sensors long before the Nikon D3/D300 came out.
For those not familiar with DXO here is a link to the comparison

Compare cameras
02-16-2009, 01:09 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by lostkj233 Quote
A statement from a person who flip flops between Pentax and Canon only because he can get one cheaper than the other and who was also banned from a Canon site I might add. Canon's CMOS sensors ARE the best in the business. Have a look at the dpreview on the image quality for the K20d verses the XSi, Pentax K20D Review: 25. Compared to (JPEG): Digital Photography Review the K20d gets owned!!! Also, you don't need L glass for good results either, EF primes and 2.8 and faster lenses from Sigma and Tamron are great too.
I don't think, that there is a significant real-world difference in image quality between current capable DSLR modells. One may have less noise at high ISO, the next one has a broader expsoure latitude, the third one better colour rendition etc. But they all provide a minimum quality level, which will satisfy more than 80% of users and the others can then choose which modells is especially strong at the parameters, that are important for these photogs.

To compare image quality with jpg-files on the other hand is utter nonsense. Jpgs will turn out completely different from one and the same camera, depending on the settings you choose. You can apply less or more sharpening, contrast, saturation etc. and the manufactureres individually decided on their specific Null-point of these presets. The user can change that to his/her liking. And this is very sensible, as the tastes vary widely. Asian photographers prefer completely different colour rendition than we Europeans do and the Americans have their own way to look at specific image qualities. So, in my eyes, the DPR reviews are completely pointless in this respect, unless they start to compare RAWs processed to a certain, well-defined and open standard.

Ofcourse you are right with your note, that you need good lenses with any camera, as otherwise the current DSLRs easily outperform bad and mediocre lenses.

Ben
02-16-2009, 01:12 PM   #13
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Here is a link to the site. Doesn't the K20D and K200D outperform the XSi?
Compare cameras

I bought a Canon XS and it had horrible focus issues and soft images. Not what I expected after reading all the glowing reviews. Traded it for a K200D with a kit lens. Love it and it takes pictures far superior to the XS I had. Feels like a real camera too. Couldn't be happier.
02-16-2009, 02:23 PM   #14
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Sigh, there are far too many agent provocateur types lurking who like to incite or complain with baseless comments. I'm not even sure why this thread was started if not to discredit for supposedly being "misled" twice by Pentax.
02-16-2009, 02:37 PM   #15
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OP: you have a right to be mad, but there is not one person here who can make your camera work the way you want it to. Very few people here are shooting long exposures, so your problem doesn't resonate with most of us. You have a legitimate complaint, and you need to do something about it, not vent your frustration here. And I hope you learned your lesson about buying a newly released product, it's best to wait until the dust settles for the deal-breaking issues to be revealed. I've learned the hard way more than once!
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