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03-16-2009, 12:58 PM   #16
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Thanks, Marc! I guess it's the combination of occasional use and cold that's causing the problem.

03-16-2009, 01:17 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
You have a K10D that runs on AA batteries?
Now that's a real hum dinger.
03-16-2009, 04:35 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote
That was my thought also.
QuoteOriginally posted by ftpaddict Quote
Now that's a real hum dinger.
Lol.

QuoteOriginally posted by blwnhr Quote
Haha, nice pickup, K10D flash (EF-500 Super).

Thankyou all for your replies. I'm no too fussed about whether this camera is usable or not (hence not really wanting to buy Eneloops, I've got batteries that last forever in my current gear), but it is frustrating me that something so seemingly simple is holding it back. It is like the camera has a really high internal resistance or something.

@Marc Sabatella: I don't think cold is an issue in this case, it is summer time here and the house/day was quite warm.


QuoteOriginally posted by rpriedhorsky Quote
It could be any one or more of:

(a) bad batteries
(b) bad charger
(c) bad camera

Before assuming (c), figure out if it's (a) and/or (b). Get a nice charger/analyzer - LaCrosse BC-900 or BC-700 or the Maha equivalent (I forget the number) - and analyze your batteries. If they're bad, get some Eneloops or Imedions. Only once you've determined the batteries and charger are good should you start worrying about sending in the camera for service.
I'll answer everyone elses posts as part of answering this one.

(A) I've tried it with the 2500mAh Ni-Mh 'AA's that I used with my *istDL that would survive '00-'000s of shots. They only lasted 6-shots. These have an awesome-low self-discharge rate. I've left them for months, thrown them in a flash and got 100 shots easily.

I tried brand new Duracell Alkalines and they wouldn't even turn the camera on.
I tried some brand new Lithiums and they fired the camera up no worries and it took 6-10 shots and was still reading full (but I had to give the batteries back so couldn't do further testing).

Finally I have been using my 2700mAh Ni-Mh 'AA's that I use in my D300. These are only a couple of months old with a manufacture date of mid-2008. They last for ages in flashes and I've got 3500+ shots using 8 in the D300. They only got me 12 shots off a fresh charge, but then I turned the camera off and was staring at it and thought "Hey, SR is on!" turned it off, the camera fired up, reading full battery, and took another 5-10 shots before I had to go out.

These are my experiences with batteries. To me is seems that Alkalines don't work at all, a Pentax acknowledged fact, Lithiums seemed to work, I probably should do some more testing with these. But my 2500 and 2700 mAh Ni-Mh's don't seem to have the juice, yet are fantastic in other devices, including high-load flashes (which they have great recycle times).


(B) The fact that all my Ni-Mh 'AA's are charged in the same charger and all last for ages I'm thinking it's not this either.


That leaves us with (C). I'm might give everything a really good clean in it tonight and see what I can work out.

I have no idea of the history of it so it could have water damage or anything. Does anyone have a service manual for one of these? If I can't get it working I might delve inside and see what I can work out

@aleonx3: The 2700 Ni-Mh's have been in it since Sunday night (it's Tuesday morning here), either tonight or tomorrow night I'll turn it on and see how many shots I can get out of it before the batteries die. (Will be interesting what I can find to take shots of around the house with a 50mm f/2 at night )
03-16-2009, 08:25 PM   #19
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I use Moby Power RCR-V3s (Li-ion rechargeable - not recommended by Pentax) & have Eneloops as backups in a K100D Super. The important point is the voltage discharge curve. Normal Ni-MH & alkalines sag too quicky under the K100D's current demands, and the camera's voltage cutoff point is rather high, so new batteries soon show empty, although they have plenty of stored energy left for less demanding cameras. So the lower capacity (2000mAH) Low Discharge NiMh batteries like Eneloops greatly outperform the 2400mAH+ standard Ni-MH batteries in this particular situation, while the 1160mAH Li-ion batteries seem to perform as well as the Eneloops (600+ shots).

Dan.


Last edited by dosdan; 03-17-2009 at 02:34 AM.
03-17-2009, 02:04 AM   #20
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well, you've not really answered your question. 100 shots from an EF-500 with a set of fresh NiMH AAs is not an issue.
What's the charger?
What's the battery brand?

Unknown is well regarded elswhere on teh Interwebz; I'll disagree with the Pentax info in that I got 700 shots out of a single set of 2700s in -7degrees C. So their numbers are conservative.

Is SR on? Is Mirrorshake on? They will both deplete batteries.

opinion:
- the batteries themselves are unbranded, cheap ones, no?
- they have very high self-discharge rates - see above
- try using them fresh off the charger
- you have a cheap charger; the Maha or LaCrosse ones mentioned above have a very good rep, the alternative is something from Ansmann, but that will be just as expensive
- if you will go for days without shooting, use Eneloops.
- the K100D appears to demand lots of power when starting, which in turn brings batteries with higher internal impedance (higher self-discharge) to their knees.

short version: Buy real batteries - Eneloops or Sanyo 2700s or GP ReCykos - and a real charger and retry.

Bret
03-17-2009, 09:04 AM   #21
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I previously posted your cure in this thread and it wasn't a joke. Use Lithium's.

My first set went 1000+ shots. Now on my second set with 800+ mostly long
exposures and still going strong.

I've been through everything you are going through with my K110D and buying
AA rechargeables are a waste of time and $$ for these cameras.
03-17-2009, 02:26 PM   #22
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I've only experience with my K200D, but I assume the principles are the same. A few thoughts:

1. If you're getting only ~10 shots on "fresh" batteries, something is clearly wrong. IIRC, the "poor" performance with NiMH that I've read about is more on the order of 100-200 shots (someone please correct me if I misrecall). I'd hesitate to throw lithiums at it until you know what the problem is.

2. Since each device is different, I'd hesitate to make conclusions based on the batteries' and charger's performance with other devices. The Kx00D cameras are notoriously finicky, and it could be that you have marginal batteries/charger that are fine in the other devices but not in your K100D.

3. There's a persistent meme floating around that the Kx00D battery problems are due to a voltage cutoff being too high or similar, but I've never seen evidence that that's actually the root of the problem. No one has (to my knowlegde) presented anything about how the battery gauges in these cameras actually work.

4. Lithium batteries are expensive, about the same as a good set of NiMH IIRC. So even if you are getting poor performance out of the NiMH (i.e., 100-200 shot range), it might be worth your while to stick with NiMH for cost reasons.

HTH,

Reid
03-17-2009, 02:42 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by rpriedhorsky Quote
3. There's a persistent meme floating around that the Kx00D battery problems are due to a voltage cutoff being too high or similar, but I've never seen evidence that that's actually the root of the problem. No one has (to my knowlegde) presented anything about how the battery gauges in these cameras actually work.

Reid
Reid, this has nothing to do with how the stupid little battery indicator on the top LCD screen works or doesn't work. If you look at the characteristics of high mAh NiMh batteries you will see a consistent trend. Under load their voltage drops. So that 1.2v battery fresh off the charger might only put out 1.1v when under load (focusing, flash, metering, writing data, etc) then after a few shots maybe only 1.05v then a few more shots and before you know it, the battery may still have 2 Ah left but the voltage is lower than the programmed cutoff voltage and the Kx00d shuts down.

This is one of the main reasons people praise Sanyo Eneloops, they can maintain a slightly higher voltage under load so the Kx00d cameras can use more of their capacity. Wander over to candlepowerforums and see everything you wanted to know about battery power explained there.

I have a Samsung GX-1S (Pentax *ist DS2 clone) and it has the same issue with batteries. I can take out the 2500 mAh AA's that the camera says is dead after 50-75 shots and power my Sigma EF-530 for hundreds of flashes with them.

03-17-2009, 07:45 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by PinarelloOnly Quote
I've been through everything you are going through with my K110D and buying
AA rechargeables are a waste of time and $$ for these cameras.
If your camera doesn't get hundreds upon hundreds of shots with Eneloops or any other high quality rechargeable, it is defective. With a properly functioning camera, rechargeables are *far* more cost effective than lithium - by probably a factor of hundreds.
03-18-2009, 01:47 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by cardinal43 Quote
I agree with Jim R about the eneloops. I have the K100D (non-super), and I have been using eneloops since I bought it, and I have no problems with getting 500 - 600 shots per charge. I rarely use the flash.
Same here. My K100D has an annoyingly low threshold for the battery voltage going down. With regular alkaline AAs, I probably get about 100 shots at most. With my Eneloops, I can easily get about 700-800 shots if I use the batteries until they're completely drained.
03-18-2009, 02:04 PM   #26
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Bottom line is: you want good reliable power for the K100D? Then get good reliable LSD AA rechargeables and a quality charger with discharge/recharge battery rejuvenation features and -ve/zero delta-V microprocessor (like Maha Powerex range).

Good batteries + good charger = no worries
03-18-2009, 02:44 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by WheresWaldo Quote
Reid, this has nothing to do with how the stupid little battery indicator on the top LCD screen works or doesn't work. If you look at the characteristics of high mAh NiMh batteries you will see a consistent trend. Under load their voltage drops. So that 1.2v battery fresh off the charger might only put out 1.1v when under load (focusing, flash, metering, writing data, etc) then after a few shots maybe only 1.05v then a few more shots and before you know it, the battery may still have 2 Ah left but the voltage is lower than the programmed cutoff voltage and the Kx00d shuts down.
It is true that if there is a voltage cutoff and it is too high, you will see the behavior above. But if you see the behavior above, that doesn't necessarily imply that there is a voltage cutoff and it is too high -- that's just one explanation. There could be another. This is why I would like other evidence that the camera uses only voltage in its "stupid little" meter and/or its decision when to shut down (both outputs could be driven from the same circuitry).

(I am well versed in the characteristics of NiMH cells.)
03-18-2009, 02:49 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by igowerf Quote
My K100D has an annoyingly low threshold for the battery voltage going down. With regular alkaline AAs, I probably get about 100 shots at most. With my Eneloops, I can easily get about 700-800 shots if I use the batteries until they're completely drained.
Alkaline vs. NiMH (any kind) is a different kettle of fish. Poor performance with alkaline cells is due to their high internal resistance: if you use alkaline in a high-current device like a camera, you waste most of the stored energy heating up the cells.

Since we're throwing around links in this thread, I like Welcome to Battery University.
03-18-2009, 03:58 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by rpriedhorsky Quote
It is true that if there is a voltage cutoff and it is too high, you will see the behavior above. But if you see the behavior above, that doesn't necessarily imply that there is a voltage cutoff and it is too high -- that's just one explanation. There could be another. This is why I would like other evidence that the camera uses only voltage in its "stupid little" meter and/or its decision when to shut down (both outputs could be driven from the same circuitry).

(I am well versed in the characteristics of NiMH cells.)
Reported over and over in every forum, also on Candlepowerforums tested with batteries of various capacities. I have also seen this behavior on my own camera, if multiple high capacity batteries produce about the same number of shots before reporting dead, then it is under load voltage related as opposed to capacity related. Plus I have tested many of the batteries I have used under load and seen this specific behavior using a CBA II from West Mountain Radio.

Besides a battery gauge that relies on voltage as it's indicator is not just "stupid" it is "really stupid."
03-18-2009, 05:28 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
If your camera doesn't get hundreds upon hundreds of shots with Eneloops or any other high quality rechargeable, it is defective. With a properly functioning camera, rechargeables are *far* more cost effective than lithium - by probably a factor of hundreds.
....and I agree with you, but I prefer 1000+ shots and the reliability of Lithiums
(cold weather, hot weather and a lighter camera).

I know for some it's a cost factor but with Wal-Mart and Target competing lately,
the price of lithiums have dropped. I have used Eneloops and I was lucky to get
200 shots (long exposures) and the shelf life wasn't the greatest.
Does that mean something is wrong with my camera? No, I don't think so.






I'll pay for lithiums...that's just me, but I think others should try them before
determining there is a voltage problem with their camera.


Also, something to understand. Lithiums can deliver high pulse currents and they
can recover from fast current draws. There is no NiCad or NiMh that can do that.

I really do not understand why the cost factor is involved when someone spends
the money on a modern day DSLR then they cheap out on the batteries.

Last edited by PinarelloOnly; 03-18-2009 at 05:37 PM.
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