[jct us101]

We haven't enough so far apparently.

[RiceHigh]

What does Canon have in your opinion, I'd love to know?

No problem, here are my views:

Why Pentax?

1. Good optics (most in the past and some nowadays), superb SMC and flare control.

2. Good skin tone and favourable colours (K-m, not so for K20 IMO).

3. Solid build and good ergonomics for cheap bodies (always).

Why Canon?

1. Choices! Most updated technologies, features and options!

2. Far superb AF and more accurate AE metering.

3. Faster cameras (as always), shorter and even very short system time lag and system response which no Pentax body can ever catch up with (the system time lag of the "flagship" K20D is somewhat close to that of Canon's EOS1000D!(?)
(You can compare figures at the Imaging Resource and also here)

[jct us101]

Here's the part where I tear you apart.

Why Canon?

1. Choices! Most updated technologies, features and options!

You mean the cameras that are upgraded every year with megapixel increases and nothing else? Oh, yeah, those.

Options:
Buy an expensive plastic camera, OR buy a really expensive metal camera that does the same things as the plastic camera, but faster!
Buy a plastic lens that costs AT LEAST $500 to get the image quality that you've been hoping for. Don't be fooled by those cheap lenses that are known to give off ghosting and flaring, if you have a Canon you only can have the best equipment, and be rich too.
That's it! You don't have any money left...and you don't have a weather sealed camera either. Watch out for that rain, unless you want to spend some more money...

2. Far superb AF and more accurate AE metering.

My K100D seems to focus fine, thank you. I'm not really sure how my XTi is better. Or the 20D. Or the 30D. Or the 5D. Oh wait, they're ALL the same (well, unless you have $4000 or so). You really should learn how to not have to get that instant focus for your landscapes, you do want everything to be nice and sharp, now don't you?

3. Faster cameras (as always), shorter and even very short system time lag and system response which no Pentax body can ever catch up with (the system time lag of the "flagship" K20D is somewhat close to that of Canon's EOS1000D!(?)
(You can compare figures at the Imaging Resource and also here)

You DO realize that the only reason why Canon has those amazing times is because they want more of the CONSUMER to buy their cameras. They don't give a sh!t about people who are actually interested in photography as a career or hobby, they just want people to buy bigger SLRs that do the same thing as their point and shoot.

Oh, and I hate to step on your little parade, but you realize the 1000D and the K20D cost the same, right? The problem is that the 1000D doesn't have weather sealing...along with that lovely 1.5fps burst rate. Ohhhh look at those birds fly away!

So tell me why am I buying the $1000+ camera bodies that don't even have half the features as Pentax for half the price? I'd really love to know.

[palmor]

Here's the part where I tear you apart.

You mean the cameras that are upgraded every year with megapixel increases and nothing else? Oh, yeah, those.

Options:
Buy an expensive plastic camera, OR buy a really expensive metal camera that does the same things as the plastic camera, but faster!
Buy a plastic lens that costs AT LEAST $500 to get the image quality that you've been hoping for. Don't be fooled by those cheap lenses that are known to give off ghosting and flaring, if you have a Canon you only can have the best equipment, and be rich too.
That's it! You don't have any money left...and you don't have a weather sealed camera either. Watch out for that rain, unless you want to spend some more money...



My K100D seems to focus fine, thank you. I'm not really sure how my XTi is better. Or the 20D. Or the 30D. Or the 5D. Oh wait, they're ALL the same (well, unless you have $4000 or so). You really should learn how to not have to get that instant focus for your landscapes, you do want everything to be nice and sharp, now don't you?



You DO realize that the only reason why Canon has those amazing times is because they want more of the CONSUMER to buy their cameras. They don't give a sh!t about people who are actually interested in photography as a career or hobby, they just want people to buy bigger SLRs that do the same thing as their point and shoot.

Oh, and I hate to step on your little parade, but you realize the 1000D and the K20D cost the same, right? The problem is that the 1000D doesn't have weather sealing...along with that lovely 1.5fps burst rate. Ohhhh look at those birds fly away!

So tell me why am I buying the $1000+ camera bodies that don't even have half the features as Pentax for half the price? I'd really love to know.

I don't even respond to RH as most of his posts just reiterate the same things and it really goes nowhere. Just a few things before people jump on some of the things you said.

The 1000D is $499 with kit lens and the K20d is $799 body only (B&H price)
The 1000D is advertised at 3.0fps not 1.5fps

Comparing the 1000D to the K20D is comparing apples to oranges IMO. I think the Canon camera to compare the K20D with is the 40D or maybe the 50D but that is a generation newer.

I think we can all agree that the price/performance ration of Pentax cameras is unparalleled really. Like it has been said countless times before there are advantages and disadvantages to EVERY system out there. It all depends on what you need for the task at hand.

I can't get upset when something thinks another brand is better (for them) then Pentax because who is to say it isn't.



John

[RiceHigh]

Here's the part where I tear you apart.

Well, peace, peace..

You mean the cameras that are upgraded every year with megapixel increases and nothing else? Oh, yeah, those.

Not just in pixels, but also in camera features, functionality and performance!

Options:
Buy an expensive plastic camera, OR buy a really expensive metal camera that does the same things as the plastic camera, but faster!

What and which plastic camera? Both Canon and Nikon have higher grade DSLR bodies with magnesium alloy shells. Pentax? Do you mean all Pentax DSLR to be plastic, at least for the outer shells??

Buy a plastic lens that costs AT LEAST $500 to get the image quality that you've been hoping for. Don't be fooled by those cheap lenses that are known to give off ghosting and flaring, if you have a Canon you only can have the best equipment, and be rich too.

Agreed with you here.

That's it! You don't have any money left...and you don't have a weather sealed camera either. Watch out for that rain, unless you want to spend some more money...

Weather sealed is not of basic concern of most. Cameras are not used to put into water or to be used under adverse weather.

It is a bonus feature, but in the first place the camera body should be competitive and up-to-date by itself.

My K100D seems to focus fine, thank you. I'm not really sure how my XTi is better. Or the 20D. Or the 30D. Or the 5D.

My K100D's autofocus will work fine, as long as:-

1. I don't shoot indoor and at lower light;

2. I don't shoot under tungsten light and with faster lenses;

3. I don't shoot moving objects;

4. I don't use the C-AF mode!

Oh wait, they're ALL the same (well, unless you have $4000 or so). You really should learn how to not have to get that instant focus for your landscapes, you do want everything to be nice and sharp, now don't you?

I don't get your point here and simply don't understand your statements.

You DO realize that the only reason why Canon has those amazing times is because they want more of the CONSUMER to buy their cameras.

But why? The MARKET tells the difference(s). Do you assume that all the majority of consumers are stupid?

They don't give a sh!t about people who are actually interested in photography as a career or hobby, they just want people to buy bigger SLRs that do the same thing as their point and shoot.

All photographers, regardless of the brand they use, should be interested to take photos, otherwise, they won't shoot!

Oh, and I hate to step on your little parade, but you realize the 1000D and the K20D cost the same, right? The problem is that the 1000D doesn't have weather sealing...along with that lovely 1.5fps burst rate. Ohhhh look at those birds fly away!

But the EOS 1000D actually focus much faster than the K20D and it is actually still much cheaper. When the K20D is still hunting for the birds, they have also flied miles away already!

So tell me why am I buying the $1000+ camera bodies that don't even have half the features as Pentax for half the price? I'd really love to know.

One word - CHOICE (but in Pentax land, there are not much *choice*)

[jct us101]

I don't see a reason in responding to all of your responses, since they were exactly what I had expected them to be (thanks for that, by the way), but this really made me laugh.

But why? The MARKET tells the difference(s). Do you assume that all the majority of consumers are stupid?

Yes.

Oh and the 1000D shoots 3fps until the card is full in JPEG mode, but only 1.5 in RAW.

[Stratman]

What Pentax IS for one person is NOT for another. Doesn't make it any less of a camera, just different.

How many times do we have to go through the discussion of how Canon and Nikon are better than Pentax?

Until RH is banned unfortunately...

[Marc Sabatella]

And there is a 'green' button, but it's buttons on the D300, one is on the left (activated with the thumb) and one near the top LCD (activated with the pointer finger).

Ok, but do they actually perform the function I mentioned (setting shutter speed automatically)? I browsed around online and kind of came to the conclusion that this feature is not available (comments on another forum where Nikon users envied that about Pentax). I'd love to be wrong about that.

It does take a while to get used to everything, as it does with any high-end electronic device, especially one from a different manufacturer.

Understood. I acknowledged I'd probably eventually get used to most of it. I just found some things surprising. Only thing that I know I'd have a veyr hard time accepting is the lack of the "green button metering" in M mode, as I do this constantly. Assuming, that is, that the buttons you describe don't actually invoke this function. If they do, I'll be happy to report back to my wife's cousin!

The biggest two that get me is the e-dials turn the opposite way to Pentax, and the lens mount turns to opposite way.

:-). Yeah, of course I noticed that, but here at least I realized there is no special reason to prefer the Pentax way.

I found, and still find, that the Pentax bodies are similar in control to their 35mm SLRs. This may be why you found the DS easier to pick up and use. Also bear in mind they are a far less customisable camera than the D300.

I never used a Pentax film SLR, so that's not it. But point taken on the relative simplicity of the DS. I think the main thing that made the DS easy for me is that it worked more similarly to the way the books I had on SLR photography (that mostly used Canon cameras in their example pictures).

Back to the dedicated buttons and lack of mode-dial. I much prefer the buttons.

I could see being OK with that. It just surprised me, because the mode dial is hardly a unique Pentax-ism. It's pretty much ubiquitous on most digital cameras I've handled.

At least ISO is easy to change by holding the OK button and using the e-dial, but this is still a lot slower than the Nikon.

How is OK button + dial slower than ISO button + dial?

Anyhow, again, no real slight on the D300 intended. I'm just relating my surprise at some things I noticed.

[jibbonpoint]

Don't give up on a good system because of the lack-lustre Aussie Pentax market. I don't think it will ever be impressive. Nevertheless, you can get just about all the bodies, lenses and accessories you'll need from B&H, KEH or Adorama (yes, I know, they're all US based, but it's still more cost-effective than going Canon or Nikon).

And on marketing - Pentax should find a balance - effective marketing that will not affect their products' price tag too much, and keep the niche they've established that is Pentax.

I've never had any problem getting Pentax glass or accessories on the same day when I've needed it. Certainly, it's not on display, though. C.R.Kennedy are the agents here & I find them pretty mediocre, frankly. They are also agents for Leica, Hasselblad, Sigma. I would reckon that they need their own dedicated agent. I'll do it.

[Ben_Edict]

Very true.

Same goes for wedding photography (photojournalistic type). Autofocus is a main concern.

I have been shooting weddings (occassionally, not my main concern) over the last 20 years exclusively with Pentax equipment (apart from MF), from the pre-AF aera 'til today. I never found any limitations noteworthy - to the contrary, the Pentax image quality always made the couple and their folk happy. May be my style of shooting (and no, I rarely make these classic family in two rows shots) is not quite as hectic and I often shoot with manual focus - even with AF lenses.

My personal conclusion is, that you can do anything with alomost any camera system. Some niche application can be realized easier with a system, that has a special strength (fast sports action would be Nikon for me - I find the Canon menues unusable), but for general applications each system has limitations and strengthes. Pentax is no excemption, but for me, the strengthes support, what I photograph (high quality lenses, very easy handling, robustness, SR, overall very high IQ).

Ben

[RiceHigh]

I don't see a reason in responding to all of your responses, since they were exactly what I had expected them to be (thanks for that, by the way), but this really made me laugh.

Me 2. But since you asked..

Yes.

Oh and the 1000D shoots 3fps until the card is full in JPEG mode, but only 1.5 in RAW.

So what? It is way better than that the K-m/K100/K200 which can only be fired for just a few shots in "continuous" shooting mode before the buffer full, even in jpeg.

[RiceHigh]

Until RH is banned unfortunately...

Well, did I start the thread?

Actually, similar threads have been opened by different Pentax users everytime!

[stewart_photo]

(snip) When the K20D is still hunting for the birds, they have also flied miles away already! (snip)

What is it with you, RiceHigh? Why do you continue to hang out in this forum when you so obviously dislike Pentax products? As far as I can see, based on your thousands of messages in various forums and personal blog so throughly trashing Pentax products, you've been dissatisfied with every Pentax camera built within the last two or three years.

If you actually own a Pentax camera (some doubts), do you get perverse masochistic pleasure from owning products you dislike? In not, are you suffering from an attention deficit disorder which causes you to keep posting negative comments in a desperate effort to gain attention, even negative attention? Or does intense envy or jealousy of our satisfaction (with Pentax products) drive your ongoing efforts to influence others to share your dissatisfaction?

You purchased a Canon EOS 5D some time ago. If your Pentax K100D camera (the one you say won't focus in lower light, won't work in tungsten light, won't meter properly, lacks features, etc) is so vastly inferior to your glorious Canon 5D, why do you keep that Pentax? Why do you continue to own a camera you dislike, that K100D or any other? Is it just to have something to endlessly whine about in this forum? If so, is that the same thing causing you to endlessly complain about Pentax products you don't even own, like the K10D or K20D?

By the way, just asking questions, not making accusations.

stewart

[pingflood]

That's it! You don't have any money left...and you don't have a weather sealed camera either. Watch out for that rain, unless you want to spend some more money...

Well, weather sealing is tossed around a lot here, but without a weather sealed lens you're not going to have much use for it. Out of all the people raving about it, how many actually own a DA* or two?

My K100D seems to focus fine, thank you. I'm not really sure how my XTi is better. Or the 20D. Or the 30D. Or the 5D. Oh wait, they're ALL the same (well, unless you have $4000 or so). You really should learn how to not have to get that instant focus for your landscapes, you do want everything to be nice and sharp, now don't you?

From experience (having owned a K20D as well as a GX-1S (rebadged DS2)) my opinion is that the XXD series (not the Rebels, which I can't comment on) have better AF servo (continuous/tracking) mode, and perform far better in low light. Hell, even my 10D (which is something like six years old now) snaps into focus much faster than a K20D in poor light. The 40D is *really* good with its 9 cross-type sensors -- a friend of mine has one and there's no way he could shoot what he does (low light indoors dance performances) with a Pentax DSLR unless he went to manual focus.

You DO realize that the only reason why Canon has those amazing times is because they want more of the CONSUMER to buy their cameras. They don't give a sh!t about people who are actually interested in photography as a career or hobby, they just want people to buy bigger SLRs that do the same thing as their point and shoot.

Well, a couple of points here. First, ALL of the camera companies are out to get people to buy their cameras. Big surprise there. Second, they don't "give a sh!t about people who are actually interested in photography as a career"? Where on earth did you get that from? Does Pentax offer anything like CPS?

Oh, and I hate to step on your little parade, but you realize the 1000D and the K20D cost the same, right? The problem is that the 1000D doesn't have weather sealing...along with that lovely 1.5fps burst rate. Ohhhh look at those birds fly away!

No comment on the Rebels, I've never liked them and they feel cheap and plasticky. Decent IQ but I wouldn't use one.

So tell me why am I buying the $1000+ camera bodies that don't even have half the features as Pentax for half the price? I'd really love to know.

Well, first of all you can get a 40D (which is probably the most comparable to K20D ) for around $800 or so, not $1000+.

What do you get with the 40D?

Faster top shutter speed at 1/8000 (handy sometimes)
6.5 fps instead of 3 (big deal for some shooting)
Twice as big a jpeg buffer
Faster and better in low light AF system
Availability of some great long glass

With the K20D:

Higher resolution
The Limited lenses (and this is a big one to some, just like long glass is to some Canon owners)
Shake reduction
Weather sealing (with the right lenses)

Different cameras, different strengths. There's no clear winner. When I looked at both a year ago I went with the K20D because I liked the image quality better, and the shake reduction was a big plus. (With what I am shooting today the 40D's strengths would have more appeal though, been getting into birds and such which really demands a lot from the AF system.)

[stewart_photo]

(snip) All my life I've been a PC repair man and macintosh lover... they're equally capable.

Given the massive disparity in software between the two platforms, how can you possibly say that, Steve?

OS/x does a hell of a lot more than any windows distribution out of the box.

I have both (OSX and XP) and both come with similar software - browsers, media players, and so on. Actually, sitting here at this moment, I can't think of a thing one OS has that the other doesn't.

Os/x almost makes me bored as I never have anything to fix.. or disable. (snip)

Purchased an Intel iMac for my wife and it took hours to get it mostly setup to her preferences - never got the Finder windows, for example, to remain exactly as we set them. After a long wait for the many OS updates, also had to hunt for anti-virus software, a replacement for iTunes, and so on. The iMacs don't come with card readers (surprise!), so also had to shop around for that. Also couldn't find software for a couple of the items she owns, such as a firmware updater for her Sansa MP3 player (will do the updates on my PC instead).

stewart