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03-20-2009, 11:06 AM   #1
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terminology: hyper-program vs hyper-manual

I think I have occasionally used a couple of Pentax terms incorrectly and I'd like to make sure I've got it right.
"Hyper-program" = P mode on the K10D/K20D only. When you switch to P mode on one of these cameras, or when you hit the green button, the camera sets the aperture and shutter speed automatically based on the stored program line pref. But you can override that automatic setting by moving the rear e-dial or the front e-dial, which will switch the camera into aperture priority or shutter priority mode respectively. P mode on the K100D and K200D is NOT "hyper-program," it's just a Program mode.

"Hyper-manual": On the K10D/K20D, this is M mode.
Now, my questions.

1, Are the two paragraphs above correct?

2, If I've got it right, what's the point of the term "hyper-manual"? I mean, what's hyper about it? It's just plain manual, no?

3, Do hyper-program and hyper-manual on the digital SLRs differ from features of the same name on Pentax film cameras? I gather that they do.


Thanks,

Will

03-20-2009, 11:45 AM   #2
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Read this:

Hyper Program
PENTAX digiich

Hyper Manual
PENTAX digiich

Also here for the K20D
http://www.pentax.jp/english/imaging/digital/slr/k20d/feature_06.html

The K200D doesn't utilize the Hyper operating system of the K20D and K10D as it has only one electronic dial, so one would have to either press the AV button and the electronic dial to dial in the aperture value or the electronic dial alone to control shutter speed in Manual mode. With the K20D/K10D the dual electronic dials allow quicker aperture or shutter speed changes.
http://www.pentax.jp/english/imaging/digital/slr/k200d/feature_08.html

Last edited by creampuff; 03-20-2009 at 11:56 AM.
03-20-2009, 12:51 PM   #3
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Thanks, creampuff, those links were instructive and taught me something I either didn't know or had forgotten.

So, it appears that, in my original post, I got "hyper-program" right, but missed something very important about "hyper-manual." I wonder if I'm the only K10D/K20D user who has missed this. Anyway, let me review hyper-manual.

"Hyper-manual": on the K10D/K20D = M mode. In this mode, you can control both the shutter speed and the aperture by moving the e-dials. M mode can be used in two ways on the K10D and in three ways on the K20D.

1. Basic operation (both cameras). User controls shutter and aperture using front and rear e-dials respectively. The settings are independent, that is, an adjustment to the aperture does NOT change the shutter speed, and vice versa. This is the default operation in M mode and if you leave it, you can return to it by hitting the green button.

2. Hyper-manual (both cameras). In M mode, hit AE-L to lock the relationship between shutter and aperture, that is to lock the EV. After you hit the AE-L button, the effects of the front and rear e-dials are no longer independent, that is, adjusting one setting causes the camera to make an offsetting adjustment to the other, in order to retain the EV that you had when you clicked AE-L. If you want to look at this way, once you hit AE-L, hyper-manual is pretty much identical to hyper-program in P mode. The main difference is that, when the mode dial is set to P, if you wanted to move the exposure off 0 EV, you would use the +/- button, while, when the dial is set to M, before you hit AE-L, you would move the exposure off 0 EV by adjusting the either the shutter or the aperture and noting the change on meter in the LED.

3. On the K20D (but not on the K10D) there is a third possible wrinkle added to the use of the camera with the mode dial on M: EV compensation. On the K20D, after you move the mode dial to M, you can hold down the +/- button and adjust the EV, and then you can use M mode in either of the ways described above. It does seem to me that, you would probably NOT want to adjust the EV in M and also use hyper-manual, just because at that point you would have to think really hard to figure out exactly what you were doing. I haven't tried it, but it seems to me you could move the meter towards underexposure using +/-, then offset that completely by moving shutter or aperture toward overexposure (before you hit AE-L). And what would be the point of that?

So, have I got it now?

Will
03-20-2009, 01:44 PM   #4
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Sidebar: HyperProgram (P) on the K20D does not function "correctly". It "should" seemlessly switch between Av and Tv modes, self adjusting ISO as you reach minimums and maximums of shutter/aperture. It doesn't; at least not with firmware 1.01.

03-20-2009, 02:04 PM   #5
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I'm pretty sure I've got it right now. Thanks again to creampuff for the links.

As someone who shot for an awful long time in old-fashioned M (full manual = you're completely on your own), I am a bit challenged by the idea of coupling shutter and aperture while the dial is on M. I mean, isn't the whole point of M that they are NOT coupled?

What I'm used to is, I set the aperture or the shutter speed where I need them to be, and then adjust one or both in a process that negotiates an acceptable exposure. From looking at the scene directly I know whether the meter's 0 EV exposure is going to be dead on or whether it needs adjustment up or down, and I know whether I want to adjust using shutter or aperture or both. And once I've made that adjustment, I can't imagine wanting to move one setting just for kicks while the camera adjusts the other. I'm not saying it's not useful. I'm justing I can't yet imagine wanting to do this. It is just a bit of a challenge to my old mental habits.

On the other hand, I am (slowly) finding that hyper-program mode really works. Six months ago if you asked me what mode dial I would want on the camera if I had only one, I'd have said M without hesitation. Now I might say P. I do recognize that there's a limit to what you can do with the +/- button (+/- 2 stops). So if the question were serious, I guess I'd have to pick M (with or without the hyper-manual dimension). But I don't often need to throw the meter that far off, in fact, I seldom adjust the EV as much as one full stop. I'm more likely to change the exposure dial (from center-weighted to spot or full matrix) or the ISO.

It's a great thing to have options. I bet somebody loves hyper-manual. To me, though, it really looks as if hyper-manual (that is, M after you click AE-L) is mainly a harder version of using +/-. And as I get more confident with P, it looks both easier and safer than M.

In both cases, I'm in control. But in M mode, you have to reset the camera for every shot if the lighting changes, while in P you don't. I'm used to the need to think constantly about the exposure in M, or rather, I used to be used to it until I really started working with hyper-program. I kept my eye on the meter in the finder all the time. If I moved from the bride's face to the bride's mother's face and the lighting's different I'd make a quick adjustment OR hit the green button. (Love that green button!) But in P, I don't have to think about exposure so hard on every shot. So P looks easier.

And P seems safer, too. I bet I will blow the exposure on fewer shots using P than using M. Now I didn't blow a lot of shots in M, but I blew some. I move pretty quick in M, but more than once, something has happened right in front of me that I wasn't expecting: I raise the camera and shoot without thinking, in order to catch the event (father kissing bride, say), and THEN I remember that a second ago I was outside in the bright sunlight and now I'm inside. Here, the limitations of the +/- compensation become an advantage rather than a limitation. In P mode, you will almost never get more than 2 stops away from a nominally correct exposure; and most of the time the risk is smaller than that. In M mode, on the other hand, there's almost no limit to how badly you can mess up a shot and it's as easy to blow the exposure totally as it is to blow it just a little.

Do other cameras (Nikon, say) have hyper-program mode?

Will
03-20-2009, 02:11 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Venturi Quote
Sidebar: HyperProgram (P) on the K20D does not function "correctly". It "should" seemlessly switch between Av and Tv modes, self adjusting ISO as you reach minimums and maximums of shutter/aperture. It doesn't; at least not with firmware 1.01.
Jim,

How is that not correct? Not sure I understand.

I do NOT use auto-ISO in P (or M). I never use auto-ISO unless I'm forced to use TAv. So if I have the ISO set to, say, 100, and I start with a green-button correct exposure of f/8 and 1/200th sec, if I move the rear e-dial to f/5.6, the shutter adjusts automatically to 1/400th sec, which is exactly what I expect to happen. What am I missing?

Will
03-20-2009, 02:22 PM   #7
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I started a thread about it mid-January: Confused by P-mode behavior
03-20-2009, 03:22 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Venturi Quote
I started a thread about it mid-January: Confused by P-mode behavior
Jim, read your thread. I disagree with the claim that it's a "bug." Just because something doesn't work the way a user expects doesn't mean it's a bug. It's a bug when it doesn't work the way the programmer expects it to work. From the user's perspective it might be a design flaw - in other words, a dumb idea - but that's something different.

And in any case, it only seems to be an issue if you use auto-ISO. I don't, except when I'm in TAv mode - and then I'm controlling both the shutter and the aperture manually. I don't like having more than one variable in the equation.

__________


Addendum 10 minutes later: OK, I read some more including the thread that Arpe linked to. Guess I didn't quite see the problem at first. I've just played with it here. I kinda sorta see something slightly funny going on when I start in P, hit green button, then try increasing the shutter speed. Not sure what to think of this. The ISO DID get higher for me automatically when the shutter was wide open - but at some point, the camera would not let adjust the shutter any more and wouldn't increase the ISO, either. Still not sure it's a "bug" but I guess if ISO is set to 400-1600, I'd expect it to go to 1600 before balking, and that's not what happened.

Oh, well, as I said, I don't use auto-ISO, so what the heck do I care? ;-)

Will


Last edited by WMBP; 03-20-2009 at 03:31 PM.
03-20-2009, 04:05 PM   #9
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I don't want to get mired down in semantics, especially since my bringing the topic up here was merely informative since your original post was on becoming more fully clear on what the two modes mean.

But for the sake of discussion, technically the behavior is a "bug". If you had a mechanical knob/control that was bidirectional (e.g. in a pump system) that was meant to allow you to open and close a valve repeatedly, but once you opened the valve the knob would not close it - that would be a "mechanical defect". In the software world we call that a "bug". You can call it a design flaw if you want but whether it is "working per design" or a programmer just didn't code it properly: it's still a "bug".
03-21-2009, 12:55 PM   #10
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Unless I missed it, seems you've missed the basic thing about "hyper-manual" on any Pentax DSLR - the fact that you can hit the Green button in M mode at any time to set an appropriate shutter speed for the selected aperture (manually assisted Av mode), or - if using an auto-exposure lens - the Green button can optionally set aperture instead (manually assisted Tv), or both (manually assisted P).

Also, K200D *does* have a form of hyper-program, except since there is only one wheel, you have to program in advance whether turning it switches you to Av or Tv mode or does something else.

Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 03-21-2009 at 11:38 PM.
03-21-2009, 08:36 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Unless I missed it, seems you've missed the basic thing about "hyper-manual" on any Pentax DSLR - the fact that you can hit the Green button in M mode at any time to set an appropriate shutter speed for the selected aperture (manually assisted Av mode), or - if using an auto-exposure lens - the Green button can optionally set aperture instead (manually assisted Tv), or both (manually assisted P).

Marc,

No, I'm aware of that. But the green button works in any mode, no? I think of it as a feature unto itself, rather than a part of any particular mode.

Will
03-21-2009, 11:38 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Marc,
No, I'm aware of that. But the green button works in any mode, no? I think of it as a feature unto itself, rather than a part of any particular mode.
I don't now what it does in any other mode, but manual mode is the only one where it has the *specific* function I mentioned, which as far as I know is the entire basis of the term "hypermanual". Most cameras in manual mode force you to keep spinning dials until the meter zeroes out; (only?) Pentax gives you a one button automatic.

As for what it does in other modes; it definitely wouldn't be what I described, since it is totally unnecessary in any other mode to hit a button to set an appropriate shutter speed or aperture - the whole point of the other mdoes is that they do this automatically, no button press required.
03-22-2009, 02:31 AM   #13
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According to the manual, the K200D does indeed have both Hyper-Program and Hyper-Manual, although they certainly don't mention those terms very often (a grand total of 3 times).

Since there's only one dial, C13 decides what it does in P mode:
- Program Shift (adjusts shutter and aperture in step)
- switch to Tv mode
- switch to Av mode

Program Shift is a little more interesting than it sounds. Normally when going from a dark to light scene, the standard P line will increase the shutter speed to a certain point, bottom out ISO (if using auto-ISO), and then start increasing aperture. If you shift it one stop to the left, it will increase the shutter speed one stop before increasing aperture. It's adjusting internal priorities rather than locking a specific setting like Tv or Av would.

Manual mode works the same as described earlier, with an exception compared to the K20D: no exposure compensation, since that button is used for adjusting the aperture instead. AE-L and the green button work the same way though.

The green button only works in P and M modes on my K200D. Does it work anywhere else on the K10D/K20D?
03-22-2009, 12:25 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I don't now what it does in any other mode, but manual mode is the only one where it has the *specific* function I mentioned, which as far as I know is the entire basis of the term "hypermanual".
OK, interesting perspective. The thing that I personally find most interesting about M on the K10D/K20D is the fact that you can get shutter and aperture locked to one another, so you move one and the other adjusts. In other words, if hyper-program in P means that you can use P almost as if it were M (which it does), then hyper-manual in M would mean that you could use M almost as if it were P. That makes terrific sense. Both in P and M, the green button simply gives you the camera's opinion about a technically correct exposure, as a starting point (and thus also acts as a sort of "reset" button).

It does seem to me that P and M could both work this way even if there weren't a green button. I guess in that case, P would give you a guess about exposure when you selected P on the mode dial; after that, there wouldn't be a reset option, so to speak. And in M, you'd have to use the meter on the LED to get a starting point - which is what I always used to do anyway.

I am not disagreeing with you, though, and I appreciate hearing that you regard the green button as integral. I certainly agree that the green button is darned useful!


QuoteQuote:
Most cameras in manual mode force you to keep spinning dials until the meter zeroes out; (only?) Pentax gives you a one button automatic.
I really would like to know if this is indeed a feature unique to Pentax. It's so clever that I can't imagine nobody has copied it by now.


QuoteQuote:
As for what it does in other modes; it definitely wouldn't be what I described, since it is totally unnecessary in any other mode to hit a button to set an appropriate shutter speed or aperture - the whole point of the other mdoes is that they do this automatically, no button press required.
I see now that green button does nothing (as far as I can tell) in Av and Tv. But in P, it does seem to me that it works exactly as it does in M: it lets the camera set aperture and shutter based on the stored pref regarding program line. It's true that in P, even before you hit the green button you had an exposure that was making the light meter happy, where in M just before you hit green button the meter could show extreme under- or over-exposure. But that's just the difference between P and M. The green button itself does the same thing. The test is that, no matter what the settings in M or P are to start with, if I hit green button, I will get the same result both in P or M (for the same scene and lighting conditions).

Addendum a few minutes later: Looks like the green button works on the K20D in TAv mode, too. Just thought I'd acknowledge that.


But again I'm not disagreeing. Probably at the moment I'm focusing on everything beside the green button because the green button is the thing that I DID understand before I asked this question.

*

I do think I could live very happily with a mode dial that had only four options: P, M, User (although I use it rarely), and TAv - and I could get rid of TAv if it were possible to use auto-ISO in M (as apparently it is on a Nikon).

These are really nice features of the Pentax K10D/K20D. You might be able to get something similar on a K100D or K200D although having two e-dials really does make it all much easier.

Thanks,

Will

Last edited by WMBP; 03-22-2009 at 12:31 PM.
03-22-2009, 12:35 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quension Quote
According to the manual, the K200D does indeed have both Hyper-Program and Hyper-Manual, although they certainly don't mention those terms very often (a grand total of 3 times).
The manuals seem to me, well, not useless, but not nearly as useful as they could be.


QuoteQuote:
The green button only works in P and M modes on my K200D. Does it work anywhere else on the K10D/K20D?
No, you're right, I made a mistake earlier. I've checked now. ON the K20D, the green button does not seem to do anything in Av or Tv mode, and as far as I can tell it doesn't do anything in Sv (sensitivity-priority) mode either. Sorry for my earlier mistake. It should be obvious that I never use Av or Tv.... :-)

Will
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