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05-06-2009, 05:24 AM   #181
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I don't even dare to think how much better that image would be with a fullframe canikon with its superior AF.
I'll just have to stick with extremely predictable slow moving objects like that Barn Swallow until I can afford to switch
Man, how this camera is holding me back!

05-06-2009, 06:34 AM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by danielchtong Quote
Can you elaborate on the dollar# between 5D/24-70 combo and K20D/Sigma 17-70?
...
I did a series of a skateboarder coming fast in my face lately with DA200/K20D all on AF-C. That is a lot faster than a kid running around
5D = $1500 from KEH. 24-70L = $1100, so it's a $2600 combo vs. a $1000 combo
Bear in mind that the 5D (it was the 5DII I played with) has Canon's *oldest* AF system and Canon users think it sucks because only the center AF point is accurate

As for the skateboarder, unless you were shooting the skateboarder a few feet away, kids can be faster and unpredictable and indoors. Most AF systems don't have problems in bright light and note that my 5D comparison wasn't in bright light.

I have no problems acknowledging the pros/cons of each system.
Horses for courses..
05-06-2009, 06:55 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
5D = $1500 from KEH. 24-70L = $1100, so it's a $2600 combo vs. a $1000 combo
Bear in mind that the 5D (it was the 5DII I played with) has Canon's *oldest* AF system and Canon users think it sucks because only the center AF point is accurate

In terms of % difference, do you think the analogy (Corolla vs BMW 3/5 series) is relevant ?

There is nothing wrong to think about the greatness of a BMW 3/5 series over that of a Corolla. And if you have the need , it is ok to switch complete or midway.

If Pentax matches the 5D + 24-70L combo in AF , it should be selling more expensive as its SR is built-in.

Same analogy. If you want your Corolla to be like BMW3/5, you can do that by getting a Lexus and of course at Lexus price.

My main issue with this thread (not to you pl) is that if you are a Corolla owner, why would you stress on how fast BMW3/5 can go on the highway? That is just one aspect of the whole perspective.

BTW, Corolla is like my DL. It just works and works. Period.

My main problem (just me) is to find interesting subject and to find a way of presenting it. Each camp has its own merits and there are minor workaround.

Some newly posted bif images from me . I can tell you they are fast and a lot more difficult than kids running. All these birds fill around 1/3 - 1/4 of my frame which means that I was within 50-70 ft of them.



























Daniel

Last edited by danielchtong; 05-06-2009 at 07:09 AM.
05-06-2009, 07:22 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by danielchtong Quote
If Pentax matches the 5D + 24-70L combo in AF , it should be selling more expensive as its SR is built-in.
Daniel
The 5D has more then better AF then the K20 to justify the extra $$(even if the K20 has SR built in). A full frame camera is is going to be more $$ no matter what.

Lets compare something a little closer in price range. A Canon 40D's AF is absolutely faster then the K20. I have both cameras so I can say that from 1st hand experience. There are also no accuracy issues with my 40D so there is no Pentax advantage there.

So lets recap...

1. It is OK to admit that one of the short comings of the Pentax system is it's AF. Even if it isn't a negative for YOU it doesn't mean that you can't admit that compared to the competition is is a little bit behind.. even in the same class of camera (no need to compare to a $$$ 1D)

2. The Pentax AF system, although not as fast, is still good and it is accurate. For a lot of photographers the AF is good enough. For me it is good for just about everything but one specific need that I bought the 40D for.

So, there are no wrong/correct sides to this argument. We can go on for eternity arguing about it (unless Pentax catches up of course).



John

05-06-2009, 07:32 AM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by palmor Quote


So, there are no wrong/correct sides to this argument. We can go on for eternity arguing about it (unless Pentax catches up of course).



John
This is a Pentax forum. Naysayers shall be beaten down by the apologists. I've found lots of times when the AF on my K20 just isn't fast enough for the job.
Like the people posting the "proof there is nothing wrong" pictures, I've also found lots of times when the AF is fast enough. Generally, it's like the pictures shown where something is moving sideways to the camera (not a test of the AF since the distance is relatively far, and static), just a test of the user's ability to track a moving subject.
05-06-2009, 08:32 AM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by palmor Quote
1. It is OK to admit that one of the short comings of the Pentax system is it's AF. Even if it isn't a negative for YOU it doesn't mean that you can't admit that compared to the competition is is a little bit behind.. even in the same class of camera (no need to compare to a $$$ 1D)

John
Is there need to admit??????

And admit

And admit

And admit

Dslr are consumer products. To argue the pros and cons of Lg /Samsung LCD compared with those from Sony is just futile. Do Sony users/fans keep asking Lg/Samsung users to admit that Sony's LCD color rendition is better? And repeatedly and repeatedly?

Likewise do BMW fans keep asking Corolla owners that BMW is faster and better cars? And repeatedly and repeatedly??

It is interesting when we look at this phenomena from the other perspective (or other consumer products).






Daniel
05-06-2009, 08:50 AM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by danielchtong Quote
Is there need to admit??????

And admit

And admit

And admit

Dslr are consumer products. To argue the pros and cons of Lg /Samsung LCD compared with those from Sony is just futile. Do Sony users/fans keep asking Lg/Samsung users to admit that Sony's LCD color rendition is better? And repeatedly and repeatedly?

Likewise do BMW fans keep asking Corolla owners that BMW is faster and better cars? And repeatedly and repeatedly??

It is interesting when we look at this phenomena from the other perspective (or other consumer products).






Daniel

Your analogies are so far out there that they really don't apply. We talking about two cameras that are in the same class here when we talk about the K20 and 40D. It isn't even close to comparing a Corrolla to a BMW. Unless you think in general all Pentax are like Corrollas and all Canon are like BMW.. if that is the case then you really do have a very low opinion of Pentax.

You can compare any two consumer products with facts and not something as "personal preference" as what TV has better color rendition. That analogy would be more like comparing the color output of the Pentax and Canon. Other camera makers produce cameras in the same class as Pentax with faster AF and predictive AF. That is a fact, it isn't a personal preference or how you feel.

QuoteOriginally posted by danielchtong Quote
It is interesting when we look at this phenomena from the other perspective (or other consumer products).
Actually it really isn't interesting at all and not relevant, at least to me (see that is a personal opinion not based on any factual evidence).

John
05-06-2009, 08:58 AM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by palmor Quote
Your analogies are so far out there that they really don't apply. We talking about two cameras that are in the same class here when we talk about the K20 and 40D.

John
How about Corolla and Civic? Better analogy? Or still very far out?

Civic drives faster than Corolla so some people believe in it. Admit that Corolla owner. Sorry Corolla owners not only have to admit. They have to admit that everyday.

I am not going even to argue the so-called AF comparison between K20D and 40D


It is interesting when we look at this phenomena from the other perspective (relating to other consumer products).



Daniel

05-06-2009, 08:58 AM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by OregonJim Quote
Why do people equate 'slower' with 'inferior'? Accuracy is more important than speed, and the speed some people expect does nothing but betray their shooting 'technique'.

Low light AF performance, however, is a completely different issue...
Are you saying the Pentax AF is more accurate? And if so, do you have anything to back that assertion up?

QuoteOriginally posted by danielchtong Quote
Can you elaborate on the dollar# between 5D/24-70 combo and K20D/Sigma 17-70?

I think I shoot 60% in AF and 40% in MF. I still prefer using AF and the limitation is in the lens as my Zenitar, Tamron macro and A300mm are manual lens.

I did a series of a skateboarder coming fast in my face lately with DA200/K20D all on AF-C. That is a lot faster than a kid running around



Daniel
I know somebody else brought it up, but comparing the K20D and 5D is a little silly. They are in two quite different price classes. Rather, compare the 40D to the K20D -- incidentally, the 40D outperforms the 5D by quite a margin in AF performance so it wouldn't make things look much better from the Pentax standpoint.

Until people start demanding better AF performance from Pentax rather than pretending that it's just as fast and good as other systems, Pentax won't have an incentive to improve it.

And honestly, you can't seriously be saying that the K20D is on the same level as a 40D or 300D when it comes to AF performance. That would be sticking your head in the sand. It's an awesome camera in pretty much all other aspects (IQ, ISO performance, ergonomics) though!
05-06-2009, 09:02 AM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by palmor Quote
BMW. Unless you think in general all Pentax are like Corrollas and all Canon are like BMW.. if that is the case then you really do have a very low opinion of Pentax.


John
Actually very high opinion if it (Pentax) is compared with Corolla which just keep going. BMW does have major issue re electronics and overal dependability. In simple term BMW has overengineering issue.


Daniel
05-06-2009, 10:43 AM   #191
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This pissin' match is so predictable

Two years runnin' and the same comments and examples... but there really is some comfort in knowing that after two years I am still the weak link in the AF of my camera.
If I say that the pentax is not fast enough for any consistancy in moving kid shots, I get back examples of BIF (usually sideways shots) or of a race car or now skateboarder... (I missed that pic though)

Anyone can post a shot where AF worked. The old broke clock analogy comes to mind here... it is right twice a Day

I even have a bunch of AF shots of my kids that are in focus. In fact I have a whole series of sledding shots that I posted, where in bright light, big Dof and ragin' high shutterspeed the contiuous AF worked really good...

But I ask the photographers... where are the 40 shots of the skateboarders / BIF that missed focus??? Are you really trying to convince me that the majority of your BIF / actions shots are in focus? Is that really what you all are saying when you post the AF shot that worked, and with you arguments that the AF is fast enough?

I am telling you that although you seem to think that shooting moving kids is a piece of cake compared to your posted examples... If those kids are moving sideways, then turn and begin coming towards you, in average lighting conditions, few if any of the ones coming towards you are gonna be in focus. I am not talking a dead run here, I am talking just moving towards you. Could I find 1 or 2 examples where the K20 does focus sharp on the kids and post them as an example to prove myself wrong? You bet I could. But I could also post 20 where it missed.

Daniel and sveinmb, those are very nice BIF shots... I have never really had the patience to get those shots, my hats off to you all who do...
05-06-2009, 10:48 AM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Do something positive for a change. It won't hurt.
Hell yeah! Positivity is what this forum is all about!

Ok then. I'm sorry for posting images of small birds that just fly sideways past my lens. It's funny how few images there are out there of birds, planes, racing cars or even rockets that's not shot straight on as it's coming towards you or leaving you. Perhaps it's because it doesn't look particularly flattering to the subject. Perhaps it just doesn't sell that well. Well, at least it will be in perfect focus if you're using a Canon?

I just don't get it. I just don't get why I even bother to visit pentaxforums. I've only been a member for a short time, but this place is so full of s***, it's absolutely mind-boggling. What kind of sick pleasure do people get from repeating the mantra over and over again about how Pentax has inferior autofocusing, useless metering and the speed of a dead turtle?

I just don't get why people can't change brands and leave us inferior hobbyist photographers alone with our miserable cameras. I've probably read a thousand times here about people that have outgrown their Pentax in a couple of weeks and need to get a 5D, D700, D3, 1D, D3X or 1DS, because.. and i quote "the camera is holding me back"!

You know.. I have a great respect for extremely talented people who need better gear to be able to fully create their masterpieces. I think it's awful that so many talents seems to go to waste because of the obvious problems with Pentax cameras. Just think what could have happened to Michael Schumacher if the only car he would ever drive was a Ford Focus. He'd never be the formula1 champion legend! The Focus would be brilliant for the average Joe driving to work though. Insert any very skilled talent in that analogy and their weapon of choice - the result would be somehow similar.

I don't know what the reason is that we get all these wasted talents around here. Surely there must be a way for them to get their superior camera that will ensure they'll get the results that corresponds to the talent they have inside them. Could it be an idea to start a donation at pentaxforums for founding better cameras or those in need? I'm sure if we all put a few bucks in this we'll be able to help a great talent to get his or her 5D every now an then?

I feel a bit guilty as a Pentaxian that I'm supporting a system that is holding down so many people and actually provoking all these repeated prayers for help. Prayers for better AF, better metering an faster shooting modes. It shouldn't be like this. Everyone who wanted it should have their superior Canon or Nikon - it's not fair! We need to sort this out asap or Pentax might possibly destroy a whole generation of talented photographers. There must be a way to help them get another and better brand of camera before it is too late !

Btw. as we're all into cars in this thread. I'm currently considering buying a second hand Porsche Boxster.. Now how insanely STUPID would I look if I instead buy a Mazda MX-5, join the forums of a Mazda owners club and each and every damn day post that I feel I've outgrown my MX-5. Mazda should make a 3.2 liter 6 cylinder version because the Porsche Boxster is far superior i both straight line speed and cornering. You know - if Mazda don't release a 300hp+ version of the MX-5 soon I'll have to jump ship and buy a Porsche Boxster!!

But I won't - I'll just keep on posting every damn day at the Mazda Owners Club forum that the Porsche Boxster is faster and corners better!




QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
I wonder, has it ever occured to you that continuous harping on about the same issue ad nauseam is actually ruining other people's enjoyment of their hobby?

Anyone coming to the forum looking to buy a Pentax would run a mile if they believed half of what they heard. How exactly does that help anyone?
Thank you *isteve! That is absolutely spot on !
05-06-2009, 11:02 AM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by sveinmb Quote
Hell yeah! Positivity is what this forum is all about!

Ok then. I'm sorry for posting images of small birds that just fly sideways past my lens. It's funny how few images there are out there of birds, planes, racing cars or even rockets that's not shot straight on as it's coming towards you or leaving you. Perhaps it's because it doesn't look particularly flattering to the subject. Perhaps it just doesn't sell that well. Well, at least it will be in perfect focus if you're using a Canon?

I just don't get it. I just don't get why I even bother to visit pentaxforums. I've only been a member for a short time, but this place is so full of s***, it's absolutely mind-boggling. What kind of sick pleasure do people get from repeating the mantra over and over again about how Pentax has inferior autofocusing, useless metering and the speed of a dead turtle?

I just don't get why people can't change brands and leave us inferior hobbyist photographers alone with our miserable cameras. I've probably read a thousand times here about people that have outgrown their Pentax in a couple of weeks and need to get a 5D, D700, D3, 1D, D3X or 1DS, because.. and i quote "the camera is holding me back"!

You know.. I have a great respect for extremely talented people who need better gear to be able to fully create their masterpieces. I think it's awful that so many talents seems to go to waste because of the obvious problems with Pentax cameras. Just think what could have happened to Michael Schumacher if the only car he would ever drive was a Ford Focus. He'd never be the formula1 champion legend! The Focus would be brilliant for the average Joe driving to work though. Insert any very skilled talent in that analogy and their weapon of choice - the result would be somehow similar.

I don't know what the reason is that we get all these wasted talents around here. Surely there must be a way for them to get their superior camera that will ensure they'll get the results that corresponds to the talent they have inside them. Could it be an idea to start a donation at pentaxforums for founding better cameras or those in need? I'm sure if we all put a few bucks in this we'll be able to help a great talent to get his or her 5D every now an then?

I feel a bit guilty as a Pentaxian that I'm supporting a system that is holding down so many people and actually provoking all these repeated prayers for help. Prayers for better AF, better metering an faster shooting modes. It shouldn't be like this. Everyone who wanted it should have their superior Canon or Nikon - it's not fair! We need to sort this out asap or Pentax might possibly destroy a whole generation of talented photographers. There must be a way to help them get another and better brand of camera before it is too late !

Btw. as we're all into cars in this thread. I'm currently considering buying a second hand Porsche Boxster.. Now how insanely STUPID would I look if I instead buy a Mazda MX-5, join the forums of a Mazda owners club and each and every damn day post that I feel I've outgrown my MX-5. Mazda should make a 3.2 liter 6 cylinder version because the Porsche Boxster is far superior i both straight line speed and cornering. You know - if Mazda don't release a 300hp+ version of the MX-5 soon I'll have to jump ship and buy a Porsche Boxster!!

But I won't - I'll just keep on posting every damn day at the Mazda Owners Club forum that the Porsche Boxster is faster and corners better!






Thank you *isteve! That is absolutely spot on !
I think that in a roundabout way, this post invokes Pentax's Law (like Godwin's law, but without the nasty armbands).
05-06-2009, 11:24 AM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote

Daniel and sveinmb, those are very nice BIF shots... I have never really had the patience to get those shots, my hats off to you all who do...
Thanks. This may give some people more talk about Pentax AF deficiency. You may not be aware of that as a lot of members of Steve forum and this forum know that I took those BIF with MF. It just happens that when I was shopping for a F or FA300mm none of them were available in my price range. I bought a MF A300mm instead. With typical Pentaxian patience, I am sure I can take the same set AF-C with a DA300mm.


Daniel
05-06-2009, 11:29 AM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I think that in a roundabout way, this post invokes Pentax's Law (like Godwin's law, but without the nasty armbands).
Wow.. just... wow

So now I'm a nazi ?
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