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04-03-2009, 05:23 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
I have noticed the same problem with my previous K10.

K20 was better but still not quite "there" compared to what i would consider "reasonable state of the art" (ie not ubber pro cameras").

Precision is THE most important parameter for AF in my everyday use and hence, I skipped the actual Pentax DSLR lineup.

I'd welcome a renewed AF with f2.8 precision point(s) (no need to have 125 of them, 5 would be excellent, placed at the corners and center of the AF rectangle). That would be a major useful evolution for me.

There are undenyable progresses on Pentax AF from generations to generations but I have the feeling that people wanting to see a Pentax "D300" (ie 6-8fps with 51pts AF) will face eternal deception: Pentax just doesn't have the technical know-how for this (just watch how they manage to be the only camera maker to propose a new ultrasonic AF motor slower than the screwdrive it was supposed to replace... even Olympus has way faster ultrasonic lenses) and, as a consequence, I don't think they will ever try to compete on AF "performances".

They will seek their survival in a different direction and that's a very good decision if you ask me.
You know all the engineers personally do you?

The Canon 5Dmk2 has the same AF system as the mk1. 3 years and no progress? For $2500? Now that would piss me off. Nor does it have any off centre cross sensors.

04-03-2009, 05:38 AM   #62
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QuoteQuote:
You know all the engineers personally do you?
I would be happy to... but no, you will have to make the presentations...

But I have to ask: why is this relevant to my point?

I just made the observation that Pentax didn't appear to have the technical know-how to make the kind of AF system some people seem to want (and I gave the specific example of the D300, but I could also have cited the 1D series).

Or maybe they do have the technical know-how but for some reason, they just don't wan't to use it, just like Canon did with their 5DMkII?

QuoteQuote:
The Canon 5Dmk2 has the same AF system as the mk1. 3 years and no progress? For $2500? Now that would piss me off. Nor does it have any off centre cross sensors.
You're right, Canon obviously had the knowledge and the means to do better but chose not to: no 5DMkII for me (plus the 5DMkI's AF is sufficient for me)!!

BTW, how is it related to what I said?
04-03-2009, 06:30 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
You know all the engineers personally do you?

The Canon 5Dmk2 has the same AF system as the mk1. 3 years and no progress? For $2500? Now that would piss me off. Nor does it have any off centre cross sensors.
Oh man, did that ever piss off the Canon users. When it was being revealed initially everyone was hoping for some "light" version of the 1D AF system, or at least some significant improvement. But nope, same system as the old one.

And there were plenty of defenders going "just use the center point and recompose" on the Canon forums too...

That stuff is pretty universal.
04-03-2009, 06:50 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by poco Quote
I have no experience with either lens. My 50mm is a F 50mm f2.8 macro.
Well then, you don't know what you are talking about? How typical for internet white knights.

QuoteQuote:
Manufacturers manufacture to a price point and a margin. Performance is based on that. This may be the reason Pentax is raising prices and it may be the raise in prices that gets you what you want with whatever the new lens and camera bodies are going to be.
Sure, almost $900.00 for the 55/1.4 and it AF's slower than my $300.00 50/1.4.
Price point based on performance?
What the 55/1.4 has going for it is a nice lens hood and a gold trim ring.
For me the jury is still out on if the rendering is $500.00 better than the FA50/1.4

QuoteQuote:
Again provide data to back up your arguments. The only data on AF I know of is the PopPhoto AF speed data. Yes, the original K20D AF data PopPhoto posted was copied from the K10D, but they redid the test at some point and the new data shows the K20D low light AF improves on the K10D's.
I didn't realize the K10 was a competitors camera.
My partner in the studio has a Nikon D200. It's AF runs circles around my K20.
QuoteQuote:
I know nothing of their testing methodology, I know of no other data to compare it to, I only know this data exists and it doesn't validate what has been posted in subjective comparisons across brands and models.

You make up your own mind about where the AF speed is or isn't.
Yes well, I and a whole bunch of other people have made up our minds based on real world picture taking rather than dubious reports on the internet from people who may or may not know how to run a test.
I'll trust my experience first.
What I'm seeing with the 55/1.4 is that Pentax is moving backwards rather than forwards with AF performance, and for myself, this is not a good thing.
This is a performance specification where slower is not better, but you are welcome to your opinion if you think otherwise.

04-03-2009, 06:56 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote

There are undenyable progresses on Pentax AF from generations to generations but I have the feeling that people wanting to see a Pentax "D300"
Heck, I'd take 11 point AF if the speed was as fast as the D300.
04-03-2009, 07:02 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
I just made the observation that Pentax didn't appear to have the technical know-how to make the kind of AF system some people seem to want (and I gave the specific example of the D300, but I could also have cited the 1D series).

Or maybe they do have the technical know-how but for some reason, they just don't wan't to use it, just like Canon did with their 5DMkII?
Pentax do have *some* technical knowhows as at least some MZ bodies can focus much faster, in Single AF mode.

QuoteQuote:
You're right, Canon obviously had the knowledge and the means to do better but chose not to: no 5DMkII for me (plus the 5DMkI's AF is sufficient for me)!!
5D MkI's AF is not slow, its continuous AF is very fast and with good tracking ability. Its AF accuracy is good and not much affected by yellow light under tungsten. It indicates focus flawlessly with its AF system even for the most tricky FA*85/1.4. I think this AF system already surpasses any of Pentax's AF systems very much, especially recent ones, for both speed and accuracy.

It has been heard that the 5D MkII's AF can be more accurate, although the AF point layout looks the same. I have not verified this yet but it maybe true.
04-03-2009, 07:46 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
It indicates focus flawlessly with its AF system even for the most tricky FA*85/1.4
Errr...are we reading the same forums and talking about the same camera? The Canon 5D's only accurate focus point is the center one (just about universal comments in forums). I know a 5D user who only uses focus-recompose as a result. My brother's wedding photog does the same thing.
04-03-2009, 08:14 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jun Park Quote

Venturi, I have the same complaint. Do you think it's possible to have a firmware update that's able to restore the previous manual focus speed? Or is this gradual loss of capability expected from my photographic system?
Unfortunately, I believe the engineers and programmers responsible for this gear are even less responsive to customer requests than Pentax and Samsung.

04-03-2009, 08:25 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Well then, you don't know what you are talking about? How typical for internet white knights.
This is what passes for intelligent discussion?

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Sure, almost $900.00 for the 55/1.4 and it AF's slower than my $300.00 50/1.4.
Price point based on performance?
What the 55/1.4 has going for it is a nice lens hood and a gold trim ring.
For me the jury is still out on if the rendering is $500.00 better than the FA50/1.4
You basing your judgment of the entire system on one lens?

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I didn't realize the K10 was a competitors camera.
Again, This is what passes for intelligent discussion?

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
My partner in the studio has a Nikon D200. It's AF runs circles around my K20.
Yes well, I and a whole bunch of other people have made up our minds based on real world picture taking rather than dubious reports on the internet from people who may or may not know how to run a test.
I'll trust my experience first.
People go to jail from eyewitness testimony that are later found to be innocent by DNA testing. If feel you are a more accurate arbitrator of the truth, then there is nothing I can post that will change your mind.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
What I'm seeing with the 55/1.4 is that Pentax is moving backwards rather than forwards with AF performance, and for myself, this is not a good thing.
This is a performance specification where slower is not better, but you are welcome to your opinion if you think otherwise.
I think your response pretty much confirms what you think, but not what you know. I think that is what is the real issue is.
04-03-2009, 09:05 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by poco Quote
This is what passes for intelligent discussion?
Your the one who started the name calling and then turned out to not have an experience based opinion.


QuoteQuote:
You basing your judgment of the entire system on one lens?
Umm, no. I'm basing it on how the 12-24 zoom, DA21, the FA35, DA40, FA50/1.7, FA50/1.4, DA*55/1.4, DA70, FA77, and F*300/4.5 perform.
However, the performance of the DA*55/1.4 is particularly telling, since it's performance limitation is built into the lens, and no amount of camera body improvement is going to do anything about it.
This is a very serious flaw, and an indication that Pentax isn't taking performance requirements seriously.
I have a feeling you have never handled a truely high performance camera.
Or, you've decided to be a thorn.
Either way, it's not very clever of you.

QuoteQuote:

Again, This is what passes for intelligent discussion?
I mentioned competitors cameras, you mentioned the K10. It's a legitimate question based on your post.

QuoteQuote:
People go to jail from eyewitness testimony that are later found to be innocent by DNA testing. If feel you are a more accurate arbitrator of the truth, then there is nothing I can post that will change your mind.
So far, I haven't seen any "evidence" that disagrees with my experience.
Do camera have DNA?

QuoteQuote:
I think your response pretty much confirms what you think, but not what you know. I think that is what is the real issue is.
My response indicates what I know. It indicates what I've seen in direct comparsons between Pentax and other brands of cameras, it indicates performance deficiencies in the performance of Pentax AF when compared to cameras from other manufacturers at a similar price point.
And it agrees with what a hell of a lot of other photographers have found as well.

Pissing into the wind is pretty stupid, you should stop before you get too wet.
04-03-2009, 09:17 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by poco Quote
I suppose. I see his comment as an attack, so responded in kind, maybe with more mockery than he displayed, but I wanted it to end. I see that this was wrong and that I should have turned the other cheek. My bad.
Thanks poco, I appreciate that. My intent was not an attack. It was more of an appeal to "just let it go". Perhaps I just should have kept my mouth shut!

Steve

(Not really into flaming or reading flame...)
04-03-2009, 09:23 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
...
You should take a look at this page of logical fallacies. Try to pick out the ones you used in your posts.
04-03-2009, 09:36 AM   #73
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I don't have the photographic experience of a lot of you guys but I'm experienced enough in life to know that nothing is perfect.
I was and am happy with my K10 and I'm even happier with my K20. I accept that Pentax AF is slower than other systems and I understand how some of you guys can be disappointed by that but Pentax does quite a few other things better than the other systems.

There are over ten thousand members on this forum, how about one of you people who is unhappy with Pentax AF start an online petition? No arguing amongst ourselves, just a simple "The members of Pentax Forums would like Pentax to address the AF speed of their cameras".
We know how to contact Ned Bunnell, maybe if enough of us were to sign it, at the least we'd get some kind of definitive response.
04-03-2009, 10:26 AM   #74
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Hmm....perhaps we should have discussions about how others are dealing with the "AF Issues" rather than just bickering (not complaining, there's a difference) about them. I have posted MTB/BMX pictures, and have seen snowboarding and auto/moto racing pictures on here as well. You might find that there are ways to work around the problems without dropping 20k on a new canikon system. Example? Even if AF is right on and in no apparent way effecting my shot, I get consistently better shots trap focusing simply because I'm already focused and can just concentrate on getting the shot. Though I'm sure that others have different (probably better) strategies.

To enhance Brits comment, a lot of my shooting is well away from shelter, as a result, when using another brand, the previous shot would also be distracted by my wondering if that's a rain cloud in the background. With Pentax, it doesn't matter, just keep clickin.

Or perhaps I like to be too constructive for the intranets...either way, it's a beautiful day here in Raleigh, NC so I'm just gonna shut up and go take some pictures!
04-03-2009, 10:30 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Horseonthefly Quote
Or perhaps I like to be too constructive for the intranets...either way, it's a beautiful day here in Raleigh, NC so I'm just gonna shut up and go take some pictures!
Rain here all day Lets hope your sunshine makes it way up here soon


John
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