[dafiryde]

Both your post and the one you responded to are an epic fail of intelligent thought.
Sorry for pointing this out to you.

nothing to be sorry about
its just that i grew up on a manual focus SLR so using manual focus on the Dlsr is not new or a problem
i bought the Pentax K10D originally because of what i read about it and i can afford it, i will never compare it to other systems, cause it fits my needs and takes the pics that i want
i do have a whine about it though
it gets me furious when i see a shot i want to take and its home



Dave

[FengyBoy]

I used to own Canon 400D with 17-40mm f4L and 70-200mm f4L IS. After I tried K20D with the two DA* lenses, I didn't notice any problem with AF. Compared to Canon, K20D doesn't show any weakness on AF at all.

[Cambo]

And I bullied or insulted you how again?

You should see your doctor about some Prozac suppositories...sounds like you're having some kind of mental meltdown over this. Maybe this photography thing is just too stressful for you...



Cameron

If you hate bullying so much WHY ARE YOU DOING IT NOW? This post was not about defending Pentax, it was about trumped up, self appointed mouthpeices who rant on about issues over and over again in the arrogant belief that they speak for us all, and then get annoyed when anyone argues with them.



Compared to what exactly - have you read any other threads on this subject? A lot of film cameras were "faster" in some conditions because they were somewhat less accurate. Noone noticed because they didnt print that large and they had no pixels to peep. How many times did you use a focus chart in those days?



Bully for you - if you dont understand why the off-centre focus points are so useful (do you use a tripod?) and why the K20D is about the only camera where they are actually accurate even in dark conditions, then you are DEFINATELY not qualified to express any AF requirements to Pentax on behalf of the rest of us.



Then a faster processor would seem like a good idea! Nikon have 52 points.



Compared to what? Do you trust reviewers at Imaging Resources? They said....

"The Pentax SAFOX VIII is a tenacious, if not especially fast, autofocus system. Generally, the Pentax K20D focused quickly and accurately, focusing in quick increments that seem to find the general area rapidly, and then refine the focus until the camera determines it is properly focused. The camera can hunt for focus: but where other manufacturers' cameras would give up, the K20D will keep on hunting, taking several seconds until it finds focus. There were only a few cases where it didn't find focus, and I had to present it with some pretty challenging low-light and low-contrast situations."

They also were pretty disparaging about continuous AF and there I would agree. Its pretty poor. But what has that to do with your comments so far I dont know. I didnt think the PZ1 had predictive AF either.



The short focus throw is the main reason Canon and Nikon kit lenses focus so damn fast. Unfortunately some of their larger, more expensive and heavier glass does not. Please read the post about the Canon 5Dmk2.



The rudest person on this thread by a mile is YOU.

This is not your exclusive forum and I do not take kindly being told where I can and cannot post.

"The AF system is cr*p" does not help anyone in Pentax "uncr*p" it so its a useless statement. Yes, it would be nice if it locked faster in low light and yes I would like a better predictive AF system, but I dont want to lose what it already has just because YOU dont think it matters. I want to keep the baby when you throw out the bathwater.

Besides which, what makes you think Pentax dont know where their cameras compare to the competition? How many millions posts have we had? Do we really need more? Its been reported many times that they did not have the resources to do any major AF work on the K20D.

Its WAY too late to worry about the replacement now, development is mostly finished. If its still bad, all these complaints are worthless. Are you going to keep on for another 2 years boring us all to death or are you going to buy a Nikon? Its as pointless as moaning that your girlfriend is ugly.

[Cambo]

In fact , I was agreeing with your point, and used it as an example...



Cameron

Both your post and the one you responded to are an epic fail of intelligent thought.
Sorry for pointing this out to you.

[Pål Jensen]

Which is, unfortunately, MOST OF THE TIME in low light. Terrible performance parameters in low light - it's like they don't even test or think of that. Cameron

I never understood the AF issue. All AF cameras I've ever tried the last 20 years are adequate for wildlifephotography. Andy Rouse claims that the AF of the Pentax 645NII gives just as many keepers as his Canon EOS-1v. Not bad surely?
I'm sitting here in room lit by two 40wattt lightbulbs. My K10D GP uses one second to focus the FA* 200/4 macro on anything. Is that bad?

[Pål Jensen]

My PZ-1P from 1992 is faster in focussing than the modern cameras - there has been NO increase in speed at all in the intervening years, just more focussing points, Cameron

Not my cameras. The MZ-S was much faster than my Z-1p (although it refuses to focus the FA* 600/4). My K10D is faster than my MZ-S.

[nanok]

I never understood the AF issue. All AF cameras I've ever tried the last 20 years are adequate for wildlifephotography. Andy Rouse claims that the AF of the Pentax 645NII gives just as many keepers as his Canon EOS-1v. Not bad surely?
I'm sitting here in room lit by two 40wattt lightbulbs. My K10D GP uses one second to focus the FA* 200/4 macro on anything. Is that bad?

i think i figured it out. the pentaxes for the european market have an improved bleeding edge af system (we always get the last technology to test, probably because we complain less and sue more seldom), this explains why we see completely different behaviour. the north america gets the "stable" "mature" version everytime, toavoid lawsuits and such, you see..

mistery solved

--
nanok, grabbing the popcorn (and a helmet)

[pingflood]

I never understood the AF issue. All AF cameras I've ever tried the last 20 years are adequate for wildlifephotography. Andy Rouse claims that the AF of the Pentax 645NII gives just as many keepers as his Canon EOS-1v. Not bad surely?
I'm sitting here in room lit by two 40wattt lightbulbs. My K10D GP uses one second to focus the FA* 200/4 macro on anything. Is that bad?

Apples vs oranges, but I have a single 60 in here and my 10D (which is ancient by DSLR standards) focuses and locks on everything in here in a fraction of a second. The only time I have seen focusing times of a second or more is when it can't find enough contrast to lock.

[OregonJim]

I have a single 60 in here and my 10D (which is ancient by DSLR standards) focuses and locks on everything in here in a fraction of a second.

You failed to mention that the only thing in the room is the 60W bulb.

Kidding aside, these kinds of comments are too subjective and unscientific to merit any weight. I'm not picking on you, pingflood - there's a lot of it going around.

[res3567]

I think it would be great to have better AF in future products; I just tried to shoot a sporting event in an indoor gym where the ambient required the settings 1/100, f2.8, ISO 1600. I was using the 50-135mm. The AF was quite slow in focusing on moving people even with AF-C. It was a tad quicker using the center AF point, but I prefer to use one of the selected points to improve my composition and I found that I missed a lot of shots because the AF simply would not lock. My friends Nikon D90 focused a heck of a lot faster (80-200 f2.8 lens).

I know MF is an alternative, but I find it hard to MF in an environment, and I do expect to be able to rely on AF to compensate.

What did great photographers do before the advent of AF? I practice relentlesly with my MF lenses. I also practice MF with my AF lenses in MF mode. All cameras that autofocus will not always work in every envioronment. That is the beuty of MF. That can be any photographer's ultimate backup as to get the sharpest shots in less than ideal situations.

This was one heck-uv-a post.

Tempers flared and emotions came out.

Yes my K10D does not focus as well as my relative's Canon 30D. His camera does perform better in lowlight. His grip is also bigger and wider than mine. ( I compared the two cameras side by side). Am I jelous? HELL NO!

He can't use the old AE 1 lenses on his camera.

He can't just put ANY EOS lens on his rig and have Shake Reduction.

IS lenses (especially the good L glass) tend to be more expensive.

His lens is a 17-85f3.5-5.6 IS.

I shot his wedding with his camera and that lens and I think the bokeh SUCKS compared to my MF 75-200f4.5!

Let us home in on the strenght of our equipment and just live with the weaknesses. Every camera from every camera maker has at least one.

[Wheatfield]

What did great photographers do before the advent of AF?

Come on, can't we give this tired old saw a rest? Have you even looked at how good auto focus has evolved photography?

Yes my K10D does not focus as well as my relative's Canon 30D. His camera does perform better in lowlight. His grip is also bigger and wider than mine. ( I compared the two cameras side by side). Am I jelous? HELL NO!

So you are happy with a sub performing camera.
Good for you.

He can't use the old AE 1 lenses on his camera.

And he bought a Canon after they buggered him once? I just can't say enough about what I think of that move.

He can't just put ANY EOS lens on his rig and have Shake Reduction.

IS lenses (especially the good L glass) tend to be more expensive.

His lens is a 17-85f3.5-5.6 IS.

I shot his wedding with his camera and that lens and I think the bokeh SUCKS compared to my MF 75-200f4.5!

You just hit on the two strengths Pentax has compared to Canon, though the lenses are getting more expensive, and Pentax compromised this strength by hobbling the DSLR lens mount.

Let us home in on the strenght of our equipment and just live with the weaknesses. Every camera from every camera maker has at least one.

Why don't we ask for a better Pentax instead? They can charge more money for it, thereby increasing cash flow, the users that want or need the higher performance will have what they want, which will shut most of us up, the brand will have a top end camera in the stable to attract new users, thereby increasing sales of the lower end cameras (cash flow again), and anyone that is happy with a weak camera can just buy one of the lower priced cameras.

When I bought into Pentax initially, they were pretty much head to head with front end of the performance curve. Based on many factors, that being one of them, I (and many other people, I am sure) made a heavy investment in the brand.
Over the past couple of decades, I (and a lot of others) have watched them slip farther and farther back, to the point they can barely see the leading edge that they were once so close to.
Now I'm not one of the people who feels they owe me anything,
I'm just one of those people who is dissapointed with them at the moment.
I'm one of those people who would buy a better Pentax if it was made available.
If you aren't, thats fine, you have the option of staying with lower end cameras. I'd just like the option of buying something better, and I am tired of the mindless apologists saying that I need to improve my technique, or that I need to practice, or that what's good enough for them would be good enough for me if I just stopped taking umbrage with their insulting attitude.
I'm really tired of the hubris of these a-holes who just don't get it.

[dafiryde]

i just want to say something here
personally i am very contented with the quality of the Pentax K20D, for if i was'nt
i would go out and buy myself a brand new
Nikon D3x 24.5MP FX Digital SLR
Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8G ED AF-S Lens ,
Nikon 24-70mm f/2.8G ED AF-S Lens ,
Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8G ED-IF Lens ,
Nikon SB-900 AF Speedlight Flash

i asssssssssssssssssume with this outfit i should have no complaints
and if you are not happy with what you have
BUY THE SAME OUTFIT !!!!!!!!!

Dave

[Wheatfield]

i just want to say something here
personally i am very contented with the quality of the Pentax K20D, for if i was'nt
i would go out and buy myself a brand new
Nikon D3x 24.5MP FX Digital SLR
Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8G ED AF-S Lens ,
Nikon 24-70mm f/2.8G ED AF-S Lens ,
Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8G ED-IF Lens ,
Nikon SB-900 AF Speedlight Flash

i asssssssssssssssssume with this outfit i should have no complaints
and if you are not happy with what you have
BUY THE SAME OUTFIT !!!!!!!!!

Dave

You must have both a lot more money than me, and you must also not have a 50 lens investment in Pentax.
When you've equalized the playing field with a $50K lens invenstment, perhaps you'll also have a valid point to make.

[ManuH]

What did great photographers do before the advent of AF?

They were just settling on less photographic opportunities. AF allows some kind of shots that are difficult to get without. It also allows people with less abilities to get a good shot. MF works well too but let's be honest: the machine beats us big time when it comes to speed. Even accuracy with the current standard focusing screens is much better with AF.

Now the Pentax AF would be good enough if the competition was not better. In AF-S I never felt hindered by my K10D AF speed. But as soon there is a moving subject, the AF performance is rather pathetic. The K20D seems a bit better but it's still lagging the competition IMHO.

But there is hope, the K-m shows better AF performance in low-light. AF-C is not any better though. Tracking is probably the most complex AF operation. Even Canon had a very hard time to get it right on its 1D mark III. And that beast uses dual processors and fast USM lens to get the performance it needs for sports (professionals would not settle for less and they deem the 40D useless for sports).

There is also the good, as *iSteve noted the 11 points AF with points well spread around the frame is very useful. 9 points are cross sensors, again a good characteristic. They unfortunately dropped the 11-points system on the K-m and its 5 points are cluttered in the center of the frame, so basically it's a one point AF camera. It's fast but it losts the off-center points.

[dafiryde]

You must have both a lot more money than me, and you must also not have a 50 lens investment in Pentax.
When you've equalized the playing field with a $50K lens invenstment, perhaps you'll also have a valid point to make.

if i had $50K lens investment in Pentax an was not happy, i would sell and
i would go out and buy myself a brand new
Nikon D3x 24.5MP FX Digital SLR
Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8G ED AF-S Lens ,
Nikon 24-70mm f/2.8G ED AF-S Lens ,
Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8G ED-IF Lens ,
Nikon SB-900 AF Speedlight Flash

it is better to lose something,
rather than stay with what will make you miserable.
life is too short,
Photography is suppose to be fun

it comes back to an article i read from Thom Hogan about tripods
we set out to buy a tripod, and find the good one is way to expensive, so over time we buy cheaper ones that don't meet our expectations. until one day we end up with the expensive one we looked at first, now at this time, we have spent 3 times what we could have spent if we bought the good one first.

Dave