[*isteve]

what? wait a minute. are you going peacefull "live and let live" on us here? we want to see BLOOD. come on, it was a promissing start.

/me puts the popcorn aside, sadly

Good, its bad for you.

[Duplo]

Thomas, reasonable as always....

Thank you Steve, Not quite as fun to read as the some of the more colourfull replies, but I like it that way.

I think Safox viii is actually OK from a mechanical POV, 11 AF points and 9 cross sensors is more than any Canon, Sony or Olympus short of a 1D series camera yet noone complains about e3 or A700 AF. (Canon users are however all complaining about the ancient but not always reliable system on the X0D series and the 5Dx, which is long in the tooth now).

I think you are right in the way that the Safox VIII may be good in terms of hardware.
I have however notised that the huge amount of AF sensors is a help in terms of tracking, but I think you are right overall.

It seems to be the AF processor on Pentax that is the issue. It needs beefing up and reprogramming. It also needs its own dedicated chip (I have noticed that AFC slows when writing to the card which knackers it in 3fps mode).

Nikon pulled one out of the hat with the D300/3/700/D3X but the speed of the processor in each is obviously worlds apart. The D3/D3X are much faster than the D300/700. I suspect this is simply a matter of using dedicated processors and memory.

I think you are right that processing power and programming plays a large part of the performance game, it corresponds to my experience with the nikon system.

And the K10D to K20D experiences seems to support it as well.

However dedicated processors will require room and more power and that means more room needed in the body, so there is a trade off and an explanation why the single digit series are so large.

However at least one Nikon user I know actually preferred the system on the D2X and D200 (and now D90) because its also pretty quick and a lot simpler

This is encouraging because even with Safox viii hardware, we could potentially see quite an improvement if they upgrade the processors and firmware.

Another point we agree on, as much as i love the Speed of the D3, one has to bear in mind the amount of work it is to get it tailored to perform optimally for a given situation.
It acutally requires quite a lot of work to make it perform to its best, given ones shooting style. So I can understand where the guy you talk about is comming from.

But sometimes simple is good

And indeed it gives room for improvement with the current AF system and that is great news for those needing it and helps to keep the cost somewhat down.

However, I dont think a lot of current Pentax lenses are optimised for fast AF either.

The lenses. a point I forgot completely.
AF is highly lens dependant and screwdrive vs. in lens moters are not cut in stone either.
A pentax example would be the FA77 and DA70.
A more extreme example are currently present on the nikkor side with their 50mm lenses.
The old 50/1.4D (scredriven) is a lot faster focusing than the new 50/1.4G (ring USM), however the latter tracks better once having achieved focus.
Funny thing is that the new sigma is actually the fastest focusing 50mm available in F-mount. So nothing is cut in stone.

Personally though, I just pray to see the K-7 before setting out on my 10 day summer assignment up North in mid july. it would be a dream to run such a body through its paces side by side with the D3s on that assignment.

Anyone know how to talk Ned into sending one to Greenland before that

[palmor]

Please point out where I said that to you! I dont think I ever made such an accusation.

I just made a joke about Michelle Pfeiffer. My girlfriend is actually gorgeous but we joke about it (she simply sais she would like to as well, then she could hang out with George Clooney and not an ugly old fart like me).



Not so funny at all. You can check some of my other posts, I think they are consistent.

I just think for a $600 cam, the "issue" is overstated by many to the point of absurdity. Thats the only issue I am objecting to. Perhaps we agree.

BTW, your photos were great.

Sorry, I guess I took your post the wrong way. I thought when you said
"But I am so unhappy I tell her every day she's ugly." that you were implying I was complaining about the AF daily.

On everything else I think we do agree.. see what happens when you talk things out

Oh, almost forgot to say thanks for the complement on the photos. Posting those was just in response to anyone who might think I was one of the people who complain and have no technique. While I'll be the 1st admin there is huge room for improvements in my technique I can get the occasional decent shot

John

[pingflood]

However at least one Nikon user I know actually preferred the system on the D2X and D200 (and now D90) because its also pretty quick and a lot simpler

The same happened with the Canon 1D/1Ds II and III -- the III (apart from having various engineering/manufacturing issues) is so complicated that while it can be setup to perform incredibly well, doing so can be pretty tricky. Some shooters prefer to use the older II bodies since they don't have a lot of AF customizations to fiddle with.

[*isteve]

The same happened with the Canon 1D/1Ds II and III -- the III (apart from having various engineering/manufacturing issues) is so complicated that while it can be setup to perform incredibly well, doing so can be pretty tricky. Some shooters prefer to use the older II bodies since they don't have a lot of AF customizations to fiddle with.

Hmm - a theme emerging? I think perhaps the law of diminishing returns has kicked in....

[*isteve]

Sorry, I guess I took your post the wrong way. I thought when you said
"But I am so unhappy I tell her every day she's ugly." that you were implying I was complaining about the AF daily.

There should be an emoticon for "tongue in cheek"

Glad we understand each other now.

[res3567]

This thread should be called *The Energizer Bunny.*

The bunny should be shooting with a Pentax camera, not playing the drums.

[danielchtong]

This thread should be called *The Energizer Bunny.*

The bunny should be shooting with a Pentax camera, not playing the drums.

I saw a lot of threads on the same subject reaching pages and pages in other forums. But participants are a lot more civilised with zero expletives/acrimony in here confirming this is a friendier forum. Job well done everybody for making this boring subject actually interesting (on the argument itself)



Daniel

[Arpe]

But you have the wrong camera so what use is that? Lots of use - taking photos is one I do take sports shots, and get some goodies, but honestly think I'd get more with faster Af and FPS, why wouldn't I?

Ever heard of eBay? I have had my old FA lenses valued recently and they are worth more than I paid for them. Ebay is a non-entity here. And our market is very small in this country. I'd use the marketplace at this site I think. It's likely to come to that sometime (when I can afford it).

Sorry I dont buy it. If you were that unhappy you would change no i wouldn't - I can't afford to re-setup what I've got in another brand , as indeed I would. I have done so 4 times. The only system I have never owned is Olympus. Obviously you are more wealthy than I.

The grass is a different shade of green but its not any greener. Thats why I dont bother complaining, because I know what I would lose. As we know that pentax has reps on this forum, why not let them know what we would like to see improved. I have had a pm that one of my complaints, and another idea, have made their way to Japan via these fora

I admit when I bought my istDs i did not do any research other than trying out the cameras in the shop. The main reason I bought it was that it was smaller than the Canon 300D and Nikon D70. So by the time it came to upgrade I have the lenses I have now. Don't worry though, I am saving my money bit by bit to either upgrade to a faster Pentax or swap brands. I'd like to stay with Pentax, I really really like the K20D except for those 2 factors, AF speed and FPS.

[pingflood]

Hmm - a theme emerging? I think perhaps the law of diminishing returns has kicked in....

There's always room for improving the AF performance, but I think there's a lesson to be learned in giving the end user TOO much stuff to customize.

[nanok]

see, that's what i hate about pentax users. no matter how inflamed the subject, they always know how to spoil a good fight and somehow get along. so reasonable and rational. damn.

seriously, i believe there is of course room for improvement, but i think the lack of speed is overrated, i think even the screwdrive system would be able to perform a lot better if it was smarter at tracking, that's what most people complain about if i understand correctly. it's not even that hard, especially with 9 proper sensors already in there, i believe a bit of firmware intelligence might improve things enough to make many people happy (it will not turn the k10d/k20d into a d300, but that's not the point), i also dare to believe a chunkier and dedicated cpu for af would ofcourse help, but is not required (i have a hunch nikon/canondo it "wrong", meaning they can afford the resources and hardware, so they just throw it in there, it can be done smarter with really simple algorythms and some thought). and i come back to the idea of (partially) opensource firmware, i guarantee that we would be scratching our heads in about a year "how the hell was that possible, we all thought the safox 8 was doomed". just try it, pentax..

--
nanok, with the obsession

[pingflood]

(i have a hunch nikon/canondo it "wrong", meaning they can afford the resources and hardware, so they just throw it in there, it can be done smarter with really simple algorythms and some thought)

Oh give it a break, this is right up there with Pentax being for the "discerning" photographer. Can we just give up this snobbery approach?

Here's a view from the "dark side" on Pentax, by the way:
Should I switch to Pentax? - Canon Digital Photography Forums

[nanok]

i don't see how what i said has anything to do with your rambling. what i said is that canon/nikon does it the "brute force" way (more hardware, and some thought, inevitabely), pentax seems to not do it at all (as far as i could tell, pentax AF does not do tracking, period), and that it might be done cheaper and smarter, if somebody would have a look. if that sounds to you like snobbery, than i probably have no idea what that word means in english.

[darthku]

Oh give it a break, this is right up there with Pentax being for the "discerning" photographer. Can we just give up this snobbery approach?

Here's a view from the "dark side" on Pentax, by the way:
Should I switch to Pentax? - Canon Digital Photography Forums

Here is my post on the subject over on the darkside forum:

Canon Digital Photography Forums - View Single Post - Should I switch to Pentax?

[res3567]

I saw a lot of threads on the same subject reaching pages and pages in other forums. But participants are a lot more civilised with zero expletives/acrimony in here confirming this is a friendier forum. Job well done everybody for making this boring subject actually interesting (on the argument itself)



Daniel

Did you read ALL of the pages?

It got a little tense in the earlier posts.

It has calmed down quite a bit however( you are riight).

I put my two cents worth in weeks or a month ago

That is why I said what I said

No harm ment.