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04-04-2009, 10:18 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Actually the K-m has a DOF preview that you can assign to the 'help' button but it's only a digital preview, not optical. No deal breaker for me as the optical one is not that easy to see, and below f/2.8 is not working anyway.

If I understand well you're using the optical DOF preview as a live meter? Why not use the aperture ring with M lenses to achieve the same?
I think you might be misunderstanding. With M lenses, normally, the meter doesn't display at all. You can press the appropriate button (Green, AE-L, whatever) to set a shutter speed that results in a zero meter reading, but the meter does not continue to display. So you cannot then see how changes in lighting or composition affect the exposure. By doing an optical DOF preview, the meter actually displays for as long as you keep holding the switch, enabling you to see how the exposure will vary between shadows and lights, for instance. This allows me to decide if I need to adjust the suggestion given by the Green button, and to see in advance how I'll need to adjust exposure for other shots in the same setting.

Seeing the meter display is absolutely fundamental to how I use M mode, and the optical DOF preview is the only way to get this with M lenses. So a camera with no DOF preview is severely crippled for me - it limits me to the "Green button" method only. That's fine to get a quick starting point, but it's no substitute for actually seeing the meter display for as long as I want.

So I'm not actually talking about using the DOF preview to gauge DOF - I normally couldn't care less about that. I'm talking about using the DOF preview as a means of seeing the meter reading while I scan about the scene. No DOF preview, no meter reading.

Not sure what your pont is about the aperture ring. Of coruse you need to use the aperture ring to select an aperture, but that doesn't cause the meter to display - it display only while doing a DOF preview.

04-04-2009, 10:23 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
I use the green button to quickly set the exposure automatically, very handy. It doesn't seem possible on the K-m to do something similar.
I don't understand how using "the green button to quickly set the exposure automatically" is any different from:

QuoteQuote:
The EC compensation works as the "stop-down" metering on the K-m.
That is, in what circumstances does the green button do something on the K20D that
the EC button doesn't on the K-m? In modes other than M, sure, the Green button has a few tricks up its sleeve - is that what you mean? But in modes other than M, the exposure is *already* set automatically; the Green button is more of a quick *reset* button. Unless you've got some specific use for it I'm not considering.
04-04-2009, 05:37 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I think you might be misunderstanding.
I thought you were using the DOF preview for... hmm... DOF purpose I now understand why you like it and how it helps you. The K-m doesn't allow that unfortunately so I can see it as a deal breaker for you. For me, it's no big deal because I have only one manual lens that I almost never use.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I don't understand how using "the green button to quickly set the exposure automatically" is any different from: The EC compensation works as the "stop-down" metering on the K-m.
ha! my turn to be misunderstood I'm using the green button with non-manual lenses. One simple case: I'm on a tripod at night. I press the green button to get a quick ballpark reading(*). From there I would adjust my exposure as needed. Another case is when I want to mix ambient light with flash, I'll spot meter a window for example (**). The EC button as a stop-down metering doesn't work with non manual lenses. On the K-m it works as... an EC button.

(*) Note that you can program the behaviour of the green button in M mode on the K20D. You can set it as an P, Av or Tv mode. I don't remember if the K200D did allow that.

(**) Now that I think a bit more about it, maybe I could use AE-L in other automatic modes to achieve the same result.
04-04-2009, 05:44 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
I agree. I don't see the point of Sv at all. I imagine there's a Sensitivity Priority Anti-Discrimination League out there somewhere that lobbied for putting this on the dial. But on a K20D, is there any difference at all between Sv and, say, P mode with the ISO set to a fixed value?
On the K-m the big difference is that in Sv mode the ISO is now accessible with the rear dial. On the K20D it's no big deal because in P mode you can still access ISO directly with OK+front dial.

QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
One other note. Before I got my K10D a while back and learned about TAv mode, if I was shooting sports or something else in low light, I generally just shot in M, with a fixed ISO. I'd have to watch the meter, of course, but I'm used to that. But I could put the camera on, oh, ISO 800 or 1100 and just deal with the noise later. Another option to consider with your K-m.
Unfortunately, like the K200D, the K-m doesn't allow direct manipulation of all 3 parameters (Aperture, Shutter, ISO) at the same time. You need to pay a lot of money for just a second dial. IMHO it's just feature crippling to make you consider buying the upper level model.

04-05-2009, 01:10 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
I just got my new K-m to supplement my K20D. It works quite well and everything is fine just like the K200D I just sold. The only thing I'm really missing is the TAv mode like the K10D/K20D have. What strategy are you using to get similar results?
Is it possible to configure the Ok button to change ISO directly? If yes, it could be a workaround (for you to change quicker manually for the ISO speed).
04-05-2009, 04:06 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Is it possible to configure the Ok button to change ISO directly? If yes, it could be a workaround (for you to change quicker manually for the ISO speed).
It's not possible and I can understand why: on the K200D you have only the rear dial, not easy to press the OK and rotate the dial at the same time. On the K-m it's virtually impossible since the OK button is used to quickly change common parameters (nicely done btw).

The only way to change the ISO on the K-m is to press the ISO button (yes there is one now, it's attributed to the right key) and you cannot use the dial to change it quickly once you have opened the ISO menu. You can set the ISO range with the dial but when you're not in auto ISO you cannot use the dial, you have to press the up and down keys and it's of course very slow to do so.
04-05-2009, 04:59 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
It's not possible and I can understand why: on the K200D you have only the rear dial, not easy to press the OK and rotate the dial at the same time. On the K-m it's virtually impossible since the OK button is used to quickly change common parameters (nicely done btw).

The only way to change the ISO on the K-m is to press the ISO button (yes there is one now, it's attributed to the right key) and you cannot use the dial to change it quickly once you have opened the ISO menu. You can set the ISO range with the dial but when you're not in auto ISO you cannot use the dial, you have to press the up and down keys and it's of course very slow to do so.
There is another way.

Press ok, select ISO in rear menu. Then press ok again.

Now, if you don't need to change other parameters in rear menu, you can use:
1) press ok
2) turn rear dial to change ISO

Clicking iso button multiple times works too (but it's slower).
04-05-2009, 05:08 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by jerrymouse Quote
There is another way.

Press ok, select ISO in rear menu. Then press ok again.

Now, if you don't need to change other parameters in rear menu, you can use:
1) press ok
2) turn rear dial to change ISO

Clicking iso button multiple times works too (but it's slower).
Ha! great tip! Thanks.

04-05-2009, 06:50 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
The only way to change the ISO on the K-m is to press the ISO button (yes there is one now, it's attributed to the right key) and you cannot use the dial to change it quickly once you have opened the ISO menu. You can set the ISO range with the dial but when you're not in auto ISO you cannot use the dial, you have to press the up and down keys and it's of course very slow to do so.
So, its just a waste of that dedicated ISO button. Pretty sad.
04-05-2009, 08:19 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
The EC button as a stop-down metering doesn't work with non manual lenses. On the K-m it works as... an EC button.
Even in M mode? That's interesting - most other models don't allow EC in M mode. Are you sure there's no way to customize things to get EC to work like the Green button with automatic lenses in M mode? That would be a serious limitation if not.

QuoteQuote:
(**) Now that I think a bit more about it, maybe I could use AE-L in other automatic modes to achieve the same result.
Probably so, but not as ideal of a solution by any means.
04-05-2009, 09:00 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Even in M mode? That's interesting - most other models don't allow EC in M mode.
The K20D does also allow it. I found it strange at first (why would you need EC in M mode?) but that way the green button will obey the EC you set. This is probably very useful for old manual lenses that tend to over or underexpose.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Are you sure there's no way to customize things to get EC to work like the Green button with automatic lenses in M mode? That would be a serious limitation if not.
It seems there's no way to customize the EC button in any way. Only the Help button (digital preview, custom img, digital filter, raw button) and the AF button (enable AF, cancel AF, AE-L) seem to be customizable.
04-05-2009, 12:26 PM   #27
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Hi ManuH,
The lack of TAv mode is one of my two major regrets with the K-m. It is a great little camera, but it would be almost perfect with:
1. TAv mode instead of Sv mode. There are already two easy/ intuitive ways to change ISO on this camera, so why include a Sv node?
2. I hate to open the user-selectable focus points issue again, but this is really helpful for macro photography. Focus and recompose works fire for normal photography, but the depth of field is so narrow in macro that I sometimes have problems.

Add these two features plus the K20D sensor into the K-m body and I have my dream camera. I am fine without the top LCD or the second dial.
04-05-2009, 02:12 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by jedperkins Quote
1. TAv mode instead of Sv mode. There are already two easy/ intuitive ways to change ISO on this camera, so why include a Sv node?
As I said Sv is the only mode where you can change ISO directly with the dial so it's not completely wasteful.
To overcome the lack of TAv I'll probably use Av mode and select carefully my ISO range. Because I use TAv mainly in low-light in this scenario: I'll shoot a scene with a FA50/1.4 where I know I can hand-held at about 1/20s easily and I don't want to be below f/2.0. On the K-m I'll have to use Av mode, set f/2 and set the ISO range so I am around 1/20s. Not as convenient as TAv but close.

QuoteOriginally posted by jedperkins Quote
2. I hate to open the user-selectable focus points issue again, but this is really helpful for macro photography. Focus and recompose works fire for normal photography, but the depth of field is so narrow in macro that I sometimes have problems.
I wouldn't use AF too much with macro. Let's remember that the AF points are actually big crosses. So in macro mode it's not that useful. Manual focus is still the best, especially when you're getting close to 1:1. What's missing on the K-m for macro is the Liveview (a better one than the K20D).

QuoteOriginally posted by jedperkins Quote
Add these two features plus the K20D sensor into the K-m body and I have my dream camera. I am fine without the top LCD or the second dial.
The top LCD can go but the second dial is so useful... Of course the K20D sensor is also much better in most situations.
04-07-2009, 03:57 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Even in M mode? That's interesting - most other models don't allow EC in M mode.
Of course not. In M mode EV comp button + dial adjusts the aperture, dial (without pressing EV comp button) adjust shutter. When using manual lenses without (or not set to) "A" aperture ring setting, EV comp button performs stop-down metering in M mode (sets shutter speed for appropriate exposure).
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