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04-03-2009, 09:33 AM   #1
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A way to get a TAv mode on the K-m/K200D?

I just got my new K-m to supplement my K20D. It works quite well and everything is fine just like the K200D I just sold. The only thing I'm really missing is the TAv mode like the K10D/K20D have. What strategy are you using to get similar results?

04-03-2009, 09:59 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
I just got my new K-m to supplement my K20D. It works quite well and everything is fine just like the K200D I just sold. The only thing I'm really missing is the TAv mode like the K10D/K20D have. What strategy are you using to get similar results?
Does the K-m allow auto-ISO in Manual (M) mode?

Will
04-03-2009, 10:18 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Does the K-m allow auto-ISO in Manual (M) mode?
Nope and I wouldn't call that a manual mode anymore. Moreover the EC wouldn't be accessible. I heard that Nikon does something like that on their DSLR. I think it's a terrible UI design if they do. TAv is much more logical.

On other note, I also miss the green button in M mode.
04-03-2009, 10:28 AM   #4
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Don't forget that it's intended as an entry level camera so it's a case of K.I.S.S.
Simple for the entry level photographers that is, not us.

04-03-2009, 10:28 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Nope and I wouldn't call that a manual mode anymore. Moreover the EC wouldn't be accessible. I heard that Nikon does something like that on their DSLR. I think it's a terrible UI design if they do. TAv is much more logical.

On other note, I also miss the green button in M mode.
As an istDS owner looking to upgrade, I see a lot to like in the K2000 so I am trying to learn more about it. What do you mean when you say you miss the green button in M mode?

I have a number of M series lenses that I like to use on my DS. I leave the focus set to AF and set M mode. I can set exposure by pressing AE-L and focus manually with the focus indicator lighting when I hit focus. I would hope to have a similar process available on a K2000.
04-03-2009, 10:28 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Nope and I wouldn't call that a manual mode anymore. Moreover the EC wouldn't be accessible. I heard that Nikon does something like that on their DSLR. I think it's a terrible UI design if they do. TAv is much more logical.

On other note, I also miss the green button in M mode.
I'm not hung up on whether this or that little extra causes "Manual" mode to lose the right be called manual. If Nikon allows auto-ISO in M mode, that's pretty much the same as TAv. The advantage of having a distinct TAv mode on the dial is that you can switch from TAv to another mode (like M) and have the camera remember two different groups of settings. The advantage of Nikon's approach is that you don't have to be bothered with an extra notch on the dial, and I kind of like that, too. One of the things I like about the K10D/K20D is that it doesn't waste space on the dial with the scene modes.

I think both the green button and the fact that the +/- button works in M mode on the K10D/K20D are both a bit odd. None of my old film cameras had these. But some people love these features. I admit that I too came to like the green button in M. So they're good ideas.

Now, back to your original question: If you don't have an actual TAv, and the camerar doesn't support auto-ISO in M mode, then it looks like the K-m simply doesn't have anything that is functionally equivalent to TAv. If I were shooting sports with such a camera, I guess I'd use Tv mode and auto-ISO. If I were shooting a wedding ceremony (nobody moving fast but light's low and changes as I point the camera in different directions) I'd probably use Av mode and auto-ISO.

Will
04-03-2009, 11:34 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
I think both the green button and the fact that the +/- button works in M mode on the K10D/K20D are both a bit odd. None of my old film cameras had these. But some people love these features. I admit that I too came to like the green button in M. So they're good ideas.
The K10D doesn't use the -/+ button in M. The *istD and K20D do. It isn't exposure compensation in M mode either. It is a meter setting; adjusting the meter one way or the other. It is still up to the photographer to use it or not with the settings on the camera. It does have the effect of applying the altered meter to the Green button, however, the effect is only after the Green button is activated.

Part of reason the green button is needed is because the mounts on the Pentax DSLR bodies don't have the mechanical coupling needed for lenses without the auto aperture setting.
04-03-2009, 12:44 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by poco Quote
The K10D doesn't use the -/+ button in M. The *istD and K20D do. It isn't exposure compensation in M mode either. It is a meter setting; adjusting the meter one way or the other.
I forget that it's not there on the K10D. I only just learned that the +/- button works on the K20D. I have never used it. I always thought that knowing how your meter responds to "normal" was just one of the things you had to do as a photographer. Could be because I shot so many photos in the past with mediocre cameras that had mediocre meters. :-)

As for whether it's exposure compensation or a meter adjustment: what's the difference? Even in, say, P, isn't exposure compensation a way of biasing the meter? I understand that, in P, if you adjust the EV, the settings change immediately, while in M neither aperture nor shutter speed change automatically, even if turn the +/- dial. In M, of course, you have to hit green button or manually adjust the aperture and/or shutter speed. But the changes you make are presumably made with reference to the meter's calculation of a spot-on 0 EV exposure.

Will

04-03-2009, 12:55 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
As for whether it's exposure compensation or a meter adjustment: what's the difference?
In M mode, that the settings remain manual and are not automatically adjusted. I wasn't trying to imply anything about any other mode.
04-03-2009, 03:11 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by bencason Quote
I have a number of M series lenses that I like to use on my DS. I leave the focus set to AF and set M mode. I can set exposure by pressing AE-L and focus manually with the focus indicator lighting when I hit focus. I would hope to have a similar process available on a K2000.
There is. It just isn't a "green" button; it's one of the other buttons. However, the K200D does *not* have DOF preview, meaning you cannot use that to get a "live" meter on the K2000 with "M" lenses as you can on the DS (or indeed, all other Pentax DSLR models). That's the deal-breaker for me; I use that feature all the time.
04-03-2009, 05:08 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
There is. It just isn't a "green" button; it's one of the other buttons. However, the K200D does *not* have DOF preview, meaning you cannot use that to get a "live" meter on the K2000 with "M" lenses as you can on the DS (or indeed, all other Pentax DSLR models). That's the deal-breaker for me; I use that feature all the time.
Actually the K-m has a DOF preview that you can assign to the 'help' button but it's only a digital preview, not optical. No deal breaker for me as the optical one is not that easy to see, and below f/2.8 is not working anyway.

If I understand well you're using the optical DOF preview as a live meter? Why not use the aperture ring with M lenses to achieve the same?
04-03-2009, 05:24 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by bencason Quote
As an istDS owner looking to upgrade, I see a lot to like in the K2000 so I am trying to learn more about it. What do you mean when you say you miss the green button in M mode?
I use the green button to quickly set the exposure automatically, very handy. It doesn't seem possible on the K-m to do something similar.

QuoteOriginally posted by bencason Quote
I have a number of M series lenses that I like to use on my DS. I leave the focus set to AF and set M mode. I can set exposure by pressing AE-L and focus manually with the focus indicator lighting when I hit focus. I would hope to have a similar process available on a K2000.
The EC compensation works as the "stop-down" metering on the K-m. Moreover the K-m has a focus trapping function.
04-03-2009, 05:33 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
I'm not hung up on whether this or that little extra causes "Manual" mode to lose the right be called manual. If Nikon allows auto-ISO in M mode, that's pretty much the same as TAv. The advantage of having a distinct TAv mode on the dial is that you can switch from TAv to another mode (like M) and have the camera remember two different groups of settings. The advantage of Nikon's approach is that you don't have to be bothered with an extra notch on the dial, and I kind of like that, too.
It's better than nothing but it's still a confusing design because you change the semantic of the Manual mode. Actually if space is constrained on the dial I'd rather have the TAv instead of Sv which I almost never use.

QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
I think both the green button and the fact that the +/- button works in M mode on the K10D/K20D are both a bit odd.
Only on the K20D but I can understand why, especially with the stop-down metering.

QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Now, back to your original question: If you don't have an actual TAv, and the camerar doesn't support auto-ISO in M mode, then it looks like the K-m simply doesn't have anything that is functionally equivalent to TAv. If I were shooting sports with such a camera, I guess I'd use Tv mode and auto-ISO. If I were shooting a wedding ceremony (nobody moving fast but light's low and changes as I point the camera in different directions) I'd probably use Av mode and auto-ISO.
That's what I'll probably do anyway or try to use the M mode for full control. But the Tv/Av are not as good as the TAv. The problem comes from the camera choosing a shutter speed relative to the focal length, using the old 1/fl rule for hand-held photography. But with SR it's often possible to gain at least 2 stops. Unfortunately the camera doesn't seem smart enough to know that.
04-03-2009, 10:16 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
But the Tv/Av are not as good as the TAv. The problem comes from the camera choosing a shutter speed relative to the focal length, using the old 1/fl rule for hand-held photography. But with SR it's often possible to gain at least 2 stops. Unfortunately the camera doesn't seem smart enough to know that.
Maybe Program Shift would help? You'd have to fix ISO, since it won't work the way you want in auto-ISO.
04-04-2009, 09:14 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Actually if space is constrained on the dial I'd rather have the TAv instead of Sv which I almost never use.
I agree. I don't see the point of Sv at all. I imagine there's a Sensitivity Priority Anti-Discrimination League out there somewhere that lobbied for putting this on the dial. But on a K20D, is there any difference at all between Sv and, say, P mode with the ISO set to a fixed value?


QuoteQuote:
That's what I'll probably do anyway or try to use the M mode for full control. But the Tv/Av are not as good as the TAv. The problem comes from the camera choosing a shutter speed relative to the focal length, using the old 1/fl rule for hand-held photography. But with SR it's often possible to gain at least 2 stops. Unfortunately the camera doesn't seem smart enough to know that.
Yes, I understand. As I've said here many times, TAv mode is one of the things that I really like about the K10D/K20D. Well, I should add that I liked it more when I was shooting almost exclusively in M; TAv was then a nice switch if I was shooting in variable low light. But for many months now I've been shooting mainly in hyperprogram (P) mode, and moving from P to TAv now requires more of a change in the way I calculate exposures and I find it disconcerting. I just shot my first wedding entirely in P (switching of course to functional Av or Tv by moving one or the other e-dials while the mode dial was on P and adjusting EV as necessary). Results okay, although having to switch ISO manually throughout the afternoon and into the evening was a more of a hassle than I had expected. Perhaps it would have been better to shoot M or TAv after all. Still trying to make up my mind.

One other note. Before I got my K10D a while back and learned about TAv mode, if I was shooting sports or something else in low light, I generally just shot in M, with a fixed ISO. I'd have to watch the meter, of course, but I'm used to that. But I could put the camera on, oh, ISO 800 or 1100 and just deal with the noise later. Another option to consider with your K-m.

Will
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