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04-26-2009, 05:47 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by daleroy Quote
And back off topic for a second, it is so nice being able to shoot at ISO1600 with virtually no noise on the D700, it's just a pity they're all blurry because I'm using a Nikon
It's completely irrelevant, the D700 doesn't use the same sensor format. And I won't even mention the price difference. Is this an attempt at trolling?

The Nikon to be compared at high ISO are the D60 (not very good, the K200D using the same sensor is better), D90 (very good but soft) and D300 (nothing special) and the just released D5000.

04-26-2009, 07:20 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
It's completely irrelevant, the D700 doesn't use the same sensor format. And I won't even mention the price difference. Is this an attempt at trolling?

The Nikon to be compared at high ISO are the D60 (not very good, the K200D using the same sensor is better), D90 (very good but soft) and D300 (nothing special) and the just released D5000.
The post I replied to was the usual Pentaxiam post of 'Nikon's are blurry/soft/no detail', which I decided to have a go at. There isn't much difference in picture quality in the D90 v K20D. Heck, all DSLRs these days are awesome. It's just gets up my goat when people decide that because they've got X brand, all other brands are inferior. I'm pretty sure nearly anyone would struggle to tell the difference on a photo taken with a D90/K20D/50D once it's been processed.
04-26-2009, 08:33 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
The K-m has an AF button that can be reprogrammed to do AE-L, Enable AF, Enable AF and disable AF on half-press and... Cancel AF
Excellent!

QuoteQuote:
Now the only thing missing is the DOF preview For the way you're using it there is maybe a workaround. In Av mode the manual lens is constantly metering, you just have to select the aperture with the lens aperture ring. OK the viewfinder gets darker but you get your live metering. I just tested it on the K-m and it works well enough.
I don't understand. In Av mode, a K-mount lens stays wide open all the time - it never stops down ever. Av mode is useless with K-mount lenses except when shooting wide open. Unless you mean, go to Av mode to get the meter reading wide open, set the shutter speed, then go back to M mode and alter the shutter speed according to how far you are from wide open? That's not easier than using DOF preview.

Anyhow, I have no doubts that for people not doing a large amount of their percentage with manual lenses, the K-m makes a heck of a lot of sense. Although I'd still find it very hard to give up the orientation sensor.
04-26-2009, 09:09 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Although I'd still find it very hard to give up the orientation sensor.
As I remember you shoot raw. So you already spend some time "developing" your pictures. Adding orientation info (i.e. changing the value of orientation field of exif data) is just another 0.1 second. I shoot JPG. Changing orientation is 0.1 second while I categorize the picture and move it to the appropriate folder. No big deal. But I don't want to convert (is this the right word?) you, just thought I'd mention it


And now something completely different
I don't like to upload family pictures to the internet for some reasons, but I think this picture speaks for itself regarding P-TTL flash, kit lens and camera jpeg quality mentioned a few pages ago. Taken with Metz 48 flash in P-TTL mode, using DA L 18-55 kit lens, jpeg straight out of the camera without any postprocessing. Everybody can decide whether it's good for his/her taste or not, for me it is good quality (especially for the price) and I'm satisfied. Btw this is my favourite pic of my daughter

04-26-2009, 09:12 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by daleroy Quote
I'm pretty sure nearly anyone would struggle to tell the difference on a photo taken with a D90/K20D/50D once it's been processed.
True enough but in JPEG mode Nikon, Canon and Sony are "smudging" the noise. In RAW NR is not applied (except by Sony before their A700 v4 firmware).

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
E
I don't understand. In Av mode, a K-mount lens stays wide open all the time - it never stops down ever.
Manual lenses have an aperture ring, if you move it the aperture is "stopped down". I have only one manual lens (Tamron 80-210) and it seems to work on this one. But it doesn't seem to work on my FA lenses. So maybe A lenses cannot stopped down this way? But M lenses?
04-26-2009, 05:08 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by simico Quote
As I remember you shoot raw. So you already spend some time "developing" your pictures. Adding orientation info (i.e. changing the value of orientation field of exif data) is just another 0.1 second.
Not really. Many pictures get only a batch development - no individual tweaking involved. And i like to see them in their proper orientation *before* making the decision as to which get the custom processing and which don't. So when using a camera with no orientation sensor (the DS), I had to go through my whole batch of pictures for the session - potentially hundreds - and select which needs need which orientation, then kick off two separate batch rotation jobs. It's not rocket science, but it's potentially 10 minutes or so I would rather not have to spend time I process a bunch of pictures.

For people whose workflow is such that it doesn't add time great - but mine is pretty well streamlined as is, and I'm telling your from experience, not having an orientation sensor was a real drag. Not worth the tens of dollars one might save by getting a K-m over a K200D for me. For someone else, maybe so.
04-26-2009, 05:12 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Manual lenses have an aperture ring, if you move it the aperture is "stopped down".
Yes, but not in real time - the lens stays open until you do a DOF preview, hit the Green button, or take the picture. And it only does that in M mode. In Av mode, the aperture has no effect whatsoever, ever.

QuoteQuote:
I have only one manual lens (Tamron 80-210) and it seems to work on this one.
If it's a K-mount lens in proper working condition, I guarantee it has never taken a picture in Av mode at anything but wide open aperture. M42 lenses are another story.

QuoteQuote:
So maybe A lenses cannot stopped down this way?
Not an issue for "A" lenses, since in "A" position, the meter reads at all times regardless of what mode you are in. It is only manual exposure K-mount lenses like the "M" series - the lenses that make up the bulk of my collection - that require DOF preview in order to get a meter reading.
04-26-2009, 05:29 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
If it's a K-mount lens in proper working condition, I guarantee it has never taken a picture in Av mode at anything but wide open aperture. M42 lenses are another story.
It's an adaptall K-mount lens. I notice that there is switch between M and A. When set to M, you can use the aperture ring as evidenced by the darkening of the viewfinder. I suppose this is a Tamron specific feature. I also guess that if you removed the aperture lever, you could do the same with M lenses. M42 lenses don't have this small lever.

04-27-2009, 01:17 AM   #99
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I've never used an Adaptall lens, but yeah, it sounds like it behaves like an M42 lens, not a K-mount lens, in that respect.
04-27-2009, 09:22 AM   #100
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I shoot digital using only manual K-mount & M-42 screwmount lenses. I don't have any of these exposure problems, as I meter using an assortment of Gossen handheld meters. Most of my film cameras don't even have meters, & consequently I'm used to, & actually prefer, metering in this fashion. In effect, I use my digital cameras as a digital backed Spotmatic. I realize this isn't for everyone, but it makes shooting more enjoyable for me, manually controlling focusing & metering functions. I also find metering in this manner more accurate than relying on the cameras metering, which seems, at least with manual lenses, to give erratic results. (P.S. - I also enjoy driving manual transmission cars, if that correlation makes any sense..... automatic cars, like automatic cameras, feel crippled to me somehow, like something is missing without my being able to control these functions myself))
04-27-2009, 10:21 AM   #101
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Funny, I drive a manual transmission, but solely because it was cheaper - I have no illusions that I'm making more informed decisions than an automatic transmission could. And I actually trust the meter in my camera just fine - just not its decision-making process. So I'll use the camera meter to tell me about the differences betwene the light and shadow, between the dark and light object in the scene - and then I set the exposure myself.
04-28-2009, 07:42 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Funny, I drive a manual transmission, but solely because it was cheaper - I have no illusions that I'm making more informed decisions than an automatic transmission could. And I actually trust the meter in my camera just fine - just not its decision-making process. So I'll use the camera meter to tell me about the differences betwene the light and shadow, between the dark and light object in the scene - and then I set the exposure myself.
I drive manual tranny all my life, because I love it to death!:-) more fun, more control, lower fuel consumption btw

now.. back to K-m/K2000
I do trust the meter, but! There is always BUT! Sometimes, it does not meter the exposure correctly, so I am adjusting shutter speed/F-stop myself, or if I am in "Av" mode, I am trying to adjust EV manually. In lots of cases, automatic EV is not the best one and if I am using manual lenses - to adjust EV manually is a must! Mostly EV+1.5 will do the job.
It takes time to get more familiar with YOUR camera!

p.s.
I am still playing with my manual Russian Tair-11A. I am in love!
F2.8, Shutter 1/125, EV+2, ISO-100


F5.6, Shutter 1/125, EV+2, ISO-100
04-28-2009, 11:58 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by grishazzz Quote
I drive manual tranny all my life, because I love it to death!:-) more fun, more control, lower fuel consumption btw
Lower fuel *if* you've got decent stick skills. I've also heard computer-aided automatic transmissions have reduced this gap to close to zero given most people's stick skills.

QuoteQuote:
I do trust the meter, but! There is always BUT! Sometimes, it does not meter the exposure correctly
Not true if you are using the meter as I described. When pointing directly at any given area under a given light, it always tells me very accurately what shutter speed is needed to get an average exposure of a little darker than 18% gray. The part it *doesn't* necessarily do well is figure out where to point in order to get useful meter readings, or how to use the information gleaned from doing this to figure out what exposure I might actually *want*. So that's where I come in. I use the camera as a foolproof light meter - to tell me how what shutter speed I need to get to 18% gray in different areas of the scene - but make I the exposure settings myself based on my own notion of how I want the exposure to come out. Works every time.
04-28-2009, 12:32 PM   #104
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Marc,
Thats a spectacular image and i went to your full size one to look at it. That grain looking noise doesn't bother me in the slightest, its the chroma noise that usually gets to me, and i don't see any in that image.

This is a beginner question but: in my pp software, the exposure slider goes up to a +4.00, does that mean that each whole number is a stop of light?

thanks and great image!
04-28-2009, 02:19 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Thats a spectacular image and i went to your full size one to look at it. That grain looking noise doesn't bother me in the slightest, its the chroma noise that usually gets to me, and i don't see any in that image.
Thanks! To be fair, they don't all look this good. Depends on the lighting and contrast inherent in the scene - also on how "big" the detail is compared to the noise. I have other shots that were better exposed in camera (more like "real" ISO 1600) but appear to show *more* chroma noise for whatever reason. On the other hand, I also have ones that have even less.

Something I'm learning recently - highly colored red light is bad for noise. It basically turns your 10MP camera into a 2.5MP one (or maybe it's 3.3MP) by effectively rendering the green and blue color channels irrelevant. And it doesn't turn your camera into one with 2.5 million *big* pixels - they are still the same small pixels with the same amount of noise, but now there is less detail to help overcome the noise.

I use ACDSee Pro for PP, and it's chroma NR control isn't all that effective, actually. But what it does, it does without sacrificing detail much at all. So for images where chroma noise is more problematic, I'll sometimes peg that slider to the right. I didn't in this case - I left it at the default midpoint position, and added just a little luminance NR, which seems to be necessary in order for the chroma NR to kick in at all.

When I want the aggressive NR treatment, BTW, I use Neat Image - so far just the free trial version, because I use it seldom to be bothered by the limitations it imposes. Although the results are typically "plasticky", it is impressive effective at achieving that look with little effort.

QuoteQuote:
This is a beginner question but: in my pp software, the exposure slider goes up to a +4.00, does that mean that each whole number is a stop of light?
Presumably. It's that's way in ACDSee Pro, and it totally makes sense for units to be EV. I suppose if you had a program where the slider went up to 100 or 255, you'd have assume those were just made up units.

Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 04-28-2009 at 02:29 PM.
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