[flyer]

If you actually owned any of the K10D, K20D, K200D, KM/K2000 and al., they would be in your sig. Ergo, you don't own any of those cameras. So, you shouldn't talk about things you don't know. Most people on this forum don't discredit other brands, you are the only one who always comes up with arguments to try to destroy Pentax. All the different camera makers have their strong and weak points. If you don't like Pentax, it's your right and your choice, but you should be honest and let people know you are a Canon lover/Pentax hater.

[RiceHigh]

If you actually owned any of the K10D, K20D, K200D, KM/K2000 and al., they would be in your sig. Ergo, you don't own any of those cameras. So, you shouldn't talk about things you don't know. Most people on this forum don't discredit other brands, you are the only one who always comes up with arguments to try to destroy Pentax. All the different camera makers have their strong and weak points. If you don't like Pentax, it's your right and your choice, but you should be honest and let people know you are a Canon lover/Pentax hater.

You own them all?

And, whats the relevancy of owning a camera and knowing a camera or making comments on a model?

Phil Askey and his guys don't own *most* of the camera they reviewed, so?

[Parallax]

........................Phil Askey and his guys don't own *most* of the camera they reviewed, so?

I would bet that unlike you they have actually held them in their hands and taken pictures with them.

[Andi Lo]

RH, please understand why we think of you the way we do. Your responses always seem so hostile and you know this causes problems, yet you still do it. There's a difference between stating something and stating it well. You bring up good points from time to time but often choose to ignore what other people think.

[flyer]

You own them all?

And, whats the relevancy of owning a camera and knowing a camera or making comments on a model?

Phil Askey and his guys don't own *most* of the camera they reviewed, so?

I don't own them all, so you won't find any comments from me about the ones I don't own and USE. Feel free to search, I don't think you'll find any comments from me (or most other members) about cameras we don't know anything about. You, on the other hand, don't own any, don't use any, don't know anything (or hardly) about the cameras you talk about, yet you pose yourself as an expert. As far as I can see, you just try to destroy Pentax name.

[RiceHigh]

RH, please understand why we think of you the way we do. Your responses always seem so hostile and you know this causes problems, yet you still do it. There's a difference between stating something and stating it well. You bring up good points from time to time but often choose to ignore what other people think.

Who are/were hostile actually? I stated the pros and cons (as fully answered the question by the OP) and you guys jumped on me *personally* (and went off-topic of course). Just think about it. And, people will judge.

[Marc Sabatella]

Does it stop down the lens also for DOP preview?

No. Lack of optical DOF preview on the K-m/K2000 would be it's biggest limitation for my purposes - not because I care about checking DOF, but because it's the only way to get a "live" meter reading with manual exposure lenses. But then, I'm one of those weirdos who uses M mode all the time and rely on having that meter visible so *I* can control exposure, as opposed to just hitting the Green button every now and then and letting the camera do it.

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Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 04-11-2009 at 09:07 AM.

[RiceHigh]

I don't own them all, so you won't find any comments from me about the ones I don't own and USE. Feel free to search, I don't think you'll find any comments from me (or most other members) about cameras we don't know anything about. You, on the other hand, don't own any, don't use any, don't know anything (or hardly) about the cameras you talk about, yet you pose yourself as an expert. As far as I can see, you just try to destroy Pentax name.

I just stated my known pros and cons of the K-m and nothing more than that - just opinions form an individual person.

While you opted not to post anything you do not know about the camera (as you say), I have my freedom and rights to post what I know in replying others here, as long as the site owner let me to do so.

I am not posing any expert as you say. I may just reply in details for what people are asking and usually I have many of the answers for what people are frequently asking. But if what you are accusing of me by conspiracy theory is right, no one will listen to me and all people will ignore me totally. Why bother? And why replying to this thread by side-tracking and attacked me? (which is totally off-topic to what the OP asked - no doubt)

In order to avoid wasting further bandwidth here, I would stop here. You can continue to "jump out" and "jump on" next time I reply others, but I shall ignore you totally from now on, after this "defense".

[flyer]

In order to avoid wasting further bandwidth here, I would stop here. You can continue to "jump out" and "jump on" next time I reply others, but I shall ignore you totally from now on, after this "defense".

That's a good start...

[kalle-bah]

I find that the inabillity to check DOF on the K-M is really not much of minus since the DOF in the viewfinder of all dslr i have tried doesent match the reallity at all. Why bother to chek DOF if it dosent really tell you how the photo is going to be.

[Andi Lo]

Who are/were hostile actually? I stated the pros and cons (as fully answered the question by the OP) and you guys jumped on me *personally* (and went off-topic of course). Just think about it. And, people will judge.

I'll bring this to pm, sorry to the OP. =)

[Marc Sabatella]

I find that the inabillity to check DOF on the K-M is really not much of minus since the DOF in the viewfinder of all dslr i have tried doesent match the reallity at all. Why bother to chek DOF if it dosent really tell you how the photo is going to be.

As I said, I couldn't care less about actually checking DOF, either. But I nonetheless consider DOF preview absolutely indispensable when using manual lenses, because it is the only way to get a "live" meter reading. If you use manual lenses a lot, not having a "live" meter is a pretty big deal - being able to press a button and get a "momentary" meter reading to set an appropriate shutter speed is nice, but is not really a good substitute for being able to actually watch the meter as you scan about a scene.

[ManuH]

Having the camera for 2 weeks now, I may contest some of these "cons" (some are a bit strange considering that you used it for a few minutes in a shop if I'm not mistaken)

Cons:

- Inaccurate flash metering, P-TTL results erratic as usual

I used it in wireless P-TTL alternatively with my K20D and the same lens (DA* 16-50). The K-m performed better in this task. I cannot conclude anything because I didn't use the flash on-camera.

- inferior in-camera jpeg quality (always shoot RAW is the way to go)

Inferior compared to? OK I don't shoot JPEG but I would think you would have a hard time seeing a difference at print level.

- no remote cable switch socket (not suitable for fireworks and inconvenience in using Bulb mode or night shootings)

True, I think this is a questionable omission even for an entry level camera. That said you can use the IR remote to achieve the same (admitedly not as convenient).

- using rechargeable AA batteries add weight to the body,
- Battery incompatibility issues, Sanyo Eneloop is almost compatible but camera is faster when using Energiser disposable AA lithiums.

The battery can be inconsistent but otherwise the Hybrid type batteries do work very well. No complains here.

- kit lens image quality is just so-so, no lens hood for the kit lens bundled - hood difficult to find / expensive to buy.

I don't agree about the kit lens. It's surprisingly good IMHO. No, surprisingly VERY good for a zoom in this range. OK it's no DA* 16-50 but sharpness is pretty good if you don't mind stopping it down a bit. The lack of lens hood is again a cheap omission but flare resistance being good it's not such a big deal. This kit lens is also very light and small, making it a good alternative to some primes.

- No LiveView and other newer functions which others are offering.

What newer functions exactly?


Now my own list compared to the K10D:

Pros:
- no VPN, better high ISO, faster low-light AF, slightly faster frame rate, much lighter, better back LCD screen, no proprietary batteries

Cons:
- small buffer, one dial only, no TAv, no top LCD, no pentaprism, smaller VF, no weathersealing of course, no tethering, no selectable AF points but the center, AF points too much in the center, no green button, no grip available

[RiceHigh]

Having the camera for 2 weeks now, I may contest some of these "cons" (some are a bit strange considering that you used it for a few minutes in a shop if I'm not mistaken)

I tried the K-m for 3 times, one unit of my friend, many units at many shops at two different days. Actually, for the third time I tried the K-m, I spent two hours!

I used it in wireless P-TTL alternatively with my K20D and the same lens (DA* 16-50). The K-m performed better in this task. I cannot conclude anything because I didn't use the flash on-camera.

The exposure results for the built-in flash is erratic and unpredictable, even for the "short" trial times I had. The erratic behaviour was actually very similar for what I got with my *ist and K DSLRs.

Inferior compared to? OK I don't shoot JPEG but I would think you would have a hard time seeing a difference at print level.

Not really, the difference is clear when the picture is viewed 100%. There is no "per pixel" sharpness and as such room for cropping is much limited if you shoot jpegs.

True, I think this is a questionable omission even for an entry level camera. That said you can use the IR remote to achieve the same (admitedly not as convenient).

All Canon DSLRs have that, even the cheapo EOS 1000 has.

Omitting this almost costless feature is unwise, the only explanation is conspiracy theory that Pentax want the K-m users to upgrade later because of this omission. In fact, many users were unaware of this omission when the K-m was launched. Only after they bought their K-m, they told the world (and they were disappointed for the omission of such a *standard* feature)

The battery can be inconsistent but otherwise the Hybrid type batteries do work very well. No complains here.

It still doesn't work satisfactorily with non-hybrid batteries, as I could see and had seen.

I don't agree about the kit lens. It's surprisingly good IMHO. No, surprisingly VERY good for a zoom in this range. OK it's no DA* 16-50 but sharpness is pretty good if you don't mind stopping it down a bit. The lack of lens hood is again a cheap omission but flare resistance being good it's not such a big deal. This kit lens is also very light and small, making it a good alternative to some primes.

As I said, the kit lens' QC is not good. I had 3 copies before and only one copy is sharp and without other problem, e.g., correct infinity focus collimation, etc.

As for the lens hood, it is just a cheap piece of plastic. No coating on Earth can replace the function of a hood. Why created the troubles? Yes, Canon also won't offer lens hood except L lenses, but they are so big to make stupid things. Pentax is not Canon, they just cannot bear the loss for making such stupid things. In fact, the lack of hood is one of the major shortcomings of the K-m kit. And, it does hurt sales!

What newer functions exactly?

LiveView, Live Histogram and exposure (Free change of Av and Tv), Contrast Detection AF, Face Detection AF, Movie Mode, etc.

Now my own list compared to the K10D:

Pros:
- no VPN, better high ISO, faster low-light AF, slightly faster frame rate, much lighter, better back LCD screen, no proprietary batteries

Not really pros, but just debugs. As for AA battery option, I think it is just a trade-off with other shortcomings.

Cons:
- small buffer, one dial only, no TAv, no top LCD, no pentaprism, smaller VF, no weathersealing of course, no tethering, no selectable AF points but the center, AF points too much in the center, no green button, no grip available

Not really big deals IMO and frankly.

[ManuH]

Wow, you spent a full two hours with it, I’m impressed ;-)

OK, so the cable remote is missing. It will affect how many % of users? Myself I almost never used it on the K10D/K20D. I know, I know it’s more convenient for fireworks and very long exposures. If they could allow the IR remote to lock the shutter, it would be a very nice workaround.

Using non-hybrid? Why would you do that when they’re much superior to anything anyway? I’m replacing all my non-hybrid rechargeable as much as possible.

So I had some luck with the kit lens. Strangely my brother-in-law is lucky too with his kit. I don’t question the possibility of sample variation but it’s true for any lens, even DA* and L lenses as you know. I’d also like to see the real world difference between hood and no-hood on the kit lens. I tried some shots directly with the sun on the side and it seemed to not be that much affected. The DA* 16-50 with its big chunk of glass and a big hood doesn’t perform as good IMO.

The newer functions you talk about are all related to Liveview. You know very well that none of the camera using the Sony 10.2MP CCD (K10D, A100, A200, D40x, D60, D80, D200, K200D, K-m/K2000) have this function. The only exception is the Sony A300 but I’d guess it’s a special version of the sensor they didn’t allow Nikon or Pentax to use.

Not really big deals IMO and frankly.

Funny, you make a big deal of the lack of remote cable port but my list is no big deal for you. For me the lack of TAv, second dial and selectable AF points are much more annoying.