black and white shooting

OregonJim · 04-11-2009, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by res3567

I have heard of removing the IR cutoff filter to acheive IR shooting. Is this the same?

No, this would be the Bayer pattern filter. I'm not sure, but it may be bonded to the sensor making for difficult removal. You would also have to modify the RAW developer software to prevent color mapping (easy with an open source developer like dcraw). However, all this work would give you sharper edges and better tonal gradation.

Last edited by OregonJim; 04-11-2009 at 10:02 PM.

res3567 · 04-11-2009, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by OregonJim

No, this would be the Bayer pattern filter. You would also have to modify the RAW developer software to prevent color mapping (easy with an open source developer like dcraw).

So this has been done succesufully I asume? That would be cool to convert a D-SLR for B&W only.

OregonJim · 04-11-2009, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by res3567

So this has been done succesufully I asume? That would be cool to convert a D-SLR for B&W only.

I have no idea if it's been done. Most B&W purists are still married to film (myself included). I can't afford to take a chance on destroying one of my DSLRs by attempting it.

res3567 · 04-11-2009, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by OregonJim

I have no idea if it's been done. Most B&W purists are still married to film (myself included). I can't afford to take a chance on destroying one of my DSLRs by attempting it.

I see. On cameras that have the so called B&W capture mode, if you added RGB filters on the lenses to enhance the shades of grey, would it have the same effect as film?

OregonJim · 04-11-2009, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by res3567

I see. On cameras that have the so called B&W capture mode, if you added RGB filters on the lenses to enhance the shades of grey, would it have the same effect as film?

As long as you don't have auto white balance set, they should behave as you expect. However, it's much easier to do this in post-processing as you can dial in different levels of filtration until it looks the way you want.

WerTicus · 04-11-2009, 11:28 PM

okay so all we could gain from removal of the colour filter would be 4x resolution... not likely any more dynamic range with current sensors.

Bart · 04-12-2009, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by WMBP

Bart,

Just checked my K10D. The difference between the K20D and the K10D that I was thinking of is that, on the K20D, you can select black and white as the default option for instant playback/instant review...Will

I see. But that wouldn't generate a file, would it.
I don't see the problem for the OP to convert to B&W on the pc either. There are quite some options available to do this - even free (might want to check out some options here)

res3567 · 04-12-2009, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by OregonJim

As long as you don't have auto white balance set, they should behave as you expect. However, it's much easier to do this in post-processing as you can dial in different levels of filtration until it looks the way you want.

Yep! I have done that many times with amazing results!

WMBP · 04-12-2009, 12:08 PM

I said, "Just checked my K10D. The difference between the K20D and the K10D that I was thinking of is that, on the K20D, you can select black and white as the default option for instant playback/instant review..." and Bart replied,

Originally posted by Bart

I see. But that wouldn't generate a file, would it...

Yes, it's not just a thumbnail for instant review on the camera: you can also generate a file.

Here's how it works - again, on a K20D.

First, go to Fn > OK and select "BW" (Monochrome) as your display option.

Now, go to Menu > Rec Mode > File Format and try the three settings there: JPEG, RAW, and RAW+.

If you choose JPEG as your file format for recording mode, then (a) the instant review you see on the back of the camera will be black and white and (b) you will get a monochrome jpeg as the resulting file.
If you choose RAW as your file format in recording mode, then (a) you get a monochrome instant review on the camera, but (b) only 1 file will be saved on the SD card - the raw file - and that file will include all the color info and when you open it in your processing software, you will see a color image.
If you choose RAW+ as your file format in recording mode, then (a) the instant review on the back of the camera will be monochrome, (b) you'll get a monochrome full-size JPEG file saved, and also (c) a COLOR raw file.

When you go to Fn > OK > "BW" (Monochrome), you also have the option to adjust hue and tonality sliders a bit if you want tweak the camera's color response before you shoot.

Will

Ratmagiclady · 04-12-2009, 03:08 PM

I use the in-camera B&W on the K20d a lot: you can always shoot RAW+Jpeg, and it appears the color information remains even into the JPEg, if you want to later go into it. (at least you can shoot in the B&W and immediately afterwards view in color modes and adjust things in camera: this is handy, as my computer facilities are limited. )

I usually find chimping in color just distracting, and liable to make me forget what I wanted to do, even if I did plunk down behind the computer to convert em all.

I'm sure that when I'm more used to the digital, I'll find myself using the RAW or other methods more, but this is actually pretty convenient.

Bart · 04-13-2009, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Ratmagiclady

I use the in-camera B&W on the K20d a lot: you can always shoot RAW+Jpeg, and it appears the color information remains even into the JPEg, if you want to later go into it. (at least you can shoot in the B&W and immediately afterwards view in color modes and adjust things in camera: this is handy, as my computer facilities are limited. )

I usually find chimping in color just distracting, and liable to make me forget what I wanted to do, even if I did plunk down behind the computer to convert em all.

I'm sure that when I'm more used to the digital, I'll find myself using the RAW or other methods more, but this is actually pretty convenient.

Well then, this shows that options that don’t seem particularly useful to some, can be of significance to others. It never hurts to have choises, does it.

Quension · 04-13-2009, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by Ratmagiclady

I use the in-camera B&W on the K20d a lot: you can always shoot RAW+Jpeg, and it appears the color information remains even into the JPEg, if you want to later go into it. (at least you can shoot in the B&W and immediately afterwards view in color modes and adjust things in camera: this is handy, as my computer facilities are limited. )

Actually, that's the camera switching between RAW and JPEG in the background. It just enables all of the Fn editing controls, and applies your choices to whichever file type they would normally be allowed on. (The JPEG created at shot time is B&W only.)

And yes, I find that behavior extremely useful too.

Cosmo · 04-13-2009, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

Just not as much fun.

Or anywhere near as good.

Palu Guimaraes · 04-13-2009, 03:43 PM

Hi "pentaxians" friends.

Thank you a lot for all your comments. So I could understand that the K10D is a bit different from the K20D on this issue.

When I bought my k10, I read somewhere that it was a camera made by photographers to photographers. This was so important to me...
Much more than the reviews I read comparing it with canon or nikon. I just love the "lack" in detail or sharpness compared to canon for example. My feeling is that the photos look more "organic" than the others. Something like comparing a vinil to a CD. The CD is more "clean" but I still prefer the vinil...

This issue of black and white shooting, could be resolved by pentax engineers/photographers, just simulating it in the camera processor.

As someone said before, it would be great shooting in that mode and see the result in the moment.

Ok, guess that I don't have other option than post editing. The "fn" thing just generates a jpg copy and is not friendly doing it between shoots.

Thank you again and best regards all.

I learned something new anyway.

Palu

Marc Sabatella · 04-13-2009, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Palu Guimaraes

Ok, guess that I don't have other option than post editing.

The word "editing" makes it sound like something you would have to do manually, one image at a time. That's not true at all with any decent program - select a bunch of images, push a button, and in seconds they'd all be turned to b&w. Of course you'd be welcome to fine tune the conversion individually if you wanted, but since that's not something you would be able to do in camera, I'm assuming that's not a high priority.

04-12-2009, 12:08 PM	#24
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	I said, "Just checked my K10D. The difference between the K20D and the K10D that I was thinking of is that, on the K20D, you can select black and white as the default option for instant playback/instant review..." and Bart replied, Originally posted by Bart I see. But that wouldn't generate a file, would it... Yes, it's not just a thumbnail for instant review on the camera: you can also generate a file. Here's how it works - again, on a K20D. First, go to Fn > OK and select "BW" (Monochrome) as your display option. Now, go to Menu > Rec Mode > File Format and try the three settings there: JPEG, RAW, and RAW+. If you choose JPEG as your file format for recording mode, then (a) the instant review you see on the back of the camera will be black and white and (b) you will get a monochrome jpeg as the resulting file. If you choose RAW as your file format in recording mode, then (a) you get a monochrome instant review on the camera, but (b) only 1 file will be saved on the SD card - the raw file - and that file will include all the color info and when you open it in your processing software, you will see a color image. If you choose RAW+ as your file format in recording mode, then (a) the instant review on the back of the camera will be monochrome, (b) you'll get a monochrome full-size JPEG file saved, and also (c) a COLOR raw file. When you go to Fn > OK > "BW" (Monochrome), you also have the option to adjust hue and tonality sliders a bit if you want tweak the camera's color response before you shoot. Will

04-13-2009, 03:43 PM	#29
Palu Guimaraes Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Porto - Portugal Posts: 29 Original Poster	Thank you all. Hi "pentaxians" friends. Thank you a lot for all your comments. So I could understand that the K10D is a bit different from the K20D on this issue. When I bought my k10, I read somewhere that it was a camera made by photographers to photographers. This was so important to me... Much more than the reviews I read comparing it with canon or nikon. I just love the "lack" in detail or sharpness compared to canon for example. My feeling is that the photos look more "organic" than the others. Something like comparing a vinil to a CD. The CD is more "clean" but I still prefer the vinil... This issue of black and white shooting, could be resolved by pentax engineers/photographers, just simulating it in the camera processor. As someone said before, it would be great shooting in that mode and see the result in the moment. Ok, guess that I don't have other option than post editing. The "fn" thing just generates a jpg copy and is not friendly doing it between shoots. Thank you again and best regards all. I learned something new anyway. Palu

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04-11-2009, 09:49 PM	#16
OregonJim Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon Posts: 1,327	Originally posted by res3567 I have heard of removing the IR cutoff filter to acheive IR shooting. Is this the same? No, this would be the Bayer pattern filter. I'm not sure, but it may be bonded to the sensor making for difficult removal. You would also have to modify the RAW developer software to prevent color mapping (easy with an open source developer like dcraw). However, all this work would give you sharper edges and better tonal gradation. Last edited by OregonJim; 04-11-2009 at 10:02 PM.

04-11-2009, 09:51 PM	#17
res3567 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Houston Tx. Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,876	Originally posted by OregonJim No, this would be the Bayer pattern filter. You would also have to modify the RAW developer software to prevent color mapping (easy with an open source developer like dcraw). So this has been done succesufully I asume? That would be cool to convert a D-SLR for B&W only.

04-11-2009, 10:10 PM	#18
OregonJim Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon Posts: 1,327	Originally posted by res3567 So this has been done succesufully I asume? That would be cool to convert a D-SLR for B&W only. I have no idea if it's been done. Most B&W purists are still married to film (myself included). I can't afford to take a chance on destroying one of my DSLRs by attempting it.

04-11-2009, 10:17 PM	#19
res3567 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Houston Tx. Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,876	Originally posted by OregonJim I have no idea if it's been done. Most B&W purists are still married to film (myself included). I can't afford to take a chance on destroying one of my DSLRs by attempting it. I see. On cameras that have the so called B&W capture mode, if you added RGB filters on the lenses to enhance the shades of grey, would it have the same effect as film?

04-11-2009, 10:34 PM	#20
OregonJim Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon Posts: 1,327	Originally posted by res3567 I see. On cameras that have the so called B&W capture mode, if you added RGB filters on the lenses to enhance the shades of grey, would it have the same effect as film? As long as you don't have auto white balance set, they should behave as you expect. However, it's much easier to do this in post-processing as you can dial in different levels of filtration until it looks the way you want.

04-11-2009, 11:28 PM	#21
WerTicus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Perth Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,514	okay so all we could gain from removal of the colour filter would be 4x resolution... not likely any more dynamic range with current sensors.

04-12-2009, 04:46 AM	#22
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	Originally posted by WMBP Bart, Just checked my K10D. The difference between the K20D and the K10D that I was thinking of is that, on the K20D, you can select black and white as the default option for instant playback/instant review...Will I see. But that wouldn't generate a file, would it. I don't see the problem for the OP to convert to B&W on the pc either. There are quite some options available to do this - even free (might want to check out some options here)

04-12-2009, 09:53 AM	#23
res3567 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Houston Tx. Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,876	Originally posted by OregonJim As long as you don't have auto white balance set, they should behave as you expect. However, it's much easier to do this in post-processing as you can dial in different levels of filtration until it looks the way you want. Yep! I have done that many times with amazing results!

04-12-2009, 03:08 PM	#25
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	I use the in-camera B&W on the K20d a lot: you can always shoot RAW+Jpeg, and it appears the color information remains even into the JPEg, if you want to later go into it. (at least you can shoot in the B&W and immediately afterwards view in color modes and adjust things in camera: this is handy, as my computer facilities are limited. ) I usually find chimping in color just distracting, and liable to make me forget what I wanted to do, even if I did plunk down behind the computer to convert em all. I'm sure that when I'm more used to the digital, I'll find myself using the RAW or other methods more, but this is actually pretty convenient.

04-13-2009, 01:10 AM	#26
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	Originally posted by Ratmagiclady I use the in-camera B&W on the K20d a lot: you can always shoot RAW+Jpeg, and it appears the color information remains even into the JPEg, if you want to later go into it. (at least you can shoot in the B&W and immediately afterwards view in color modes and adjust things in camera: this is handy, as my computer facilities are limited. ) I usually find chimping in color just distracting, and liable to make me forget what I wanted to do, even if I did plunk down behind the computer to convert em all. I'm sure that when I'm more used to the digital, I'll find myself using the RAW or other methods more, but this is actually pretty convenient. Well then, this shows that options that don’t seem particularly useful to some, can be of significance to others. It never hurts to have choises, does it.

04-13-2009, 03:16 AM	#27
Quension Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: west coast USA Posts: 206	Originally posted by Ratmagiclady I use the in-camera B&W on the K20d a lot: you can always shoot RAW+Jpeg, and it appears the color information remains even into the JPEg, if you want to later go into it. (at least you can shoot in the B&W and immediately afterwards view in color modes and adjust things in camera: this is handy, as my computer facilities are limited. ) Actually, that's the camera switching between RAW and JPEG in the background. It just enables all of the Fn editing controls, and applies your choices to whichever file type they would normally be allowed on. (The JPEG created at shot time is B&W only.) And yes, I find that behavior extremely useful too.

04-13-2009, 03:21 AM	#28
Cosmo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 488	Originally posted by graphicgr8s Just not as much fun. Or anywhere near as good.

04-13-2009, 06:26 PM	#30
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Originally posted by Palu Guimaraes Ok, guess that I don't have other option than post editing. The word "editing" makes it sound like something you would have to do manually, one image at a time. That's not true at all with any decent program - select a bunch of images, push a button, and in seconds they'd all be turned to b&w. Of course you'd be welcome to fine tune the conversion individually if you wanted, but since that's not something you would be able to do in camera, I'm assuming that's not a high priority.