black and white shooting

Palu Guimaraes · 04-11-2009, 07:01 AM

Hi all pentaxians friends.

Please forgive me if you think that my question is too amateur, but I own a pentax K10D for two years by now and I love it.
I bought it from the US, since it was much cheaper than in Portugal.

The question is this: - Is there any way I can shoot in black and white? (like in many compact cameras)
I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing.

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Palu

Wheatfield · 04-11-2009, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by Palu Guimaraes

Hi all pentaxians friends.

Please forgive me if you think that my question is too amateur, but I own a pentax K10D for two years by now and I love it.
I bought it from the US, since it was much cheaper than in Portugal.

The question is this: - Is there any way I can shoot in black and white? (like in many compact cameras)
I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing.

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Palu

Unfortunately for what you need, digital is a colour process, and the cameras are set up with that in mind.
I think menus and post processing are the only route you have.
It's still easier than shooting B&W film, processing it and printing it.

graphicgr8s · 04-11-2009, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

Unfortunately for what you need, digital is a colour process, and the cameras are set up with that in mind.
I think menus and post processing are the only route you have.
It's still easier than shooting B&W film, processing it and printing it.

Just not as much fun.

Marc Sabatella · 04-11-2009, 08:59 AM

No idea if the K10D can shoot B&W - I know some others can - but it's trivially simple to set up a preset to batch process a whole bunch of images to change them to B&W in just seconds, with most PP software.

WerTicus · 04-11-2009, 09:26 AM

imagine if the sensor was black and white, it would have the same advantages of b+w film, massive dynamic range and a lot sharper because no need for the colour filter.

hmmmmmm

Lazaruscomeout · 04-11-2009, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by WerTicus

imagine if the sensor was black and white, it would have the same advantages of b+w film, massive dynamic range and a lot sharper because no need for the colour filter.

hmmmmmm

Interesting point. If I understand the way a sensor works, then it would triple the effective resolution for the same MPs.

Gerry

RioRico · 04-11-2009, 10:53 AM

The K20D can easily generate B&W JPGs with various filter effects. Don't know about the K10D, don't have one, and haven't seen the manual - does it have a SHOOTING SETTINGS section? Yes, it's possible to do various B&W conversions in PP, all more or less satisfactory.

Ah, a filterless panchromatic sensor - it would actually have quadruple resolution, as the filter sets up a RGBG matrix. THAT would be awesome, but who will produce it? It's likely only economically feasible on interchangeable-back cams. Let's start lobbying the sensor makers, eh?

WMBP · 04-11-2009, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by Palu Guimaraes

The question is this: - Is there any way I can shoot in black and white? (like in many compact cameras). I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing.

Palu,

First, the sensor in your camera records colors. You can't tell it NOT to save that info, and in my opinion, saving that info is a good thing. I am sure that I get better black and white conversions in Lightroom because the underlying color info is there and I can work with it. In other words, in an inital black and white conversion, the subject's red sweater might appear to be the same "color" - same shade of gray - as the green grass she's standing on. But on the computer, in Lightroom and many other programs, I can adjust the green channel and make the grass lighter without affecting the red channel. I personally wouldn't want to give up that info even if it were possible.

That said, on the Pentax K20D, it is possible to ask the camera to show you a black and white conversion in the preview screen. I don't use it often, but I suppose some people might like it if they knew they were going to convert to black and white on the computer they just wanted to get an idea if the exposure was working okay for that purpose. This option is accessed via the Fn button. Click Fn, then click OK and select the color option that you prefer. "BW" (black and white) is the last option.

NOTE that, if you use this option and you shoot raw, you don't lose the color info. You just get a black and white preview and a black and white embedded jpeg.

Don't have my K10D handy to confirm but I'm pretty sure this isn't an option on the K10D.

Will

Bart · 04-11-2009, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by WMBP

...
Don't have my K10D handy to confirm but I'm pretty sure this isn't an option on the K10D...

Sure it is. See Manual, p95-97 "Processing Images with Filters". One of them being B&W.

But I believe this is what the OP was refering to.

Quote:

...
I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing. ...

WMBP · 04-11-2009, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Bart

Sure it is. See Manual, p95-97 "Processing Images with Filters". One of them being B&W.

Bart,

Just checked my K10D. The difference between the K20D and the K10D that I was thinking of is that, on the K20D, you can select black and white as the default option for instant playback/instant review. In other words, you take a shot and a second later you can see a black and white review of the shot on the camera's display, without having to do anything. As I said, the option to see black and white instant playback is accessed, while you're in shooting mode, via Fn > OK...

You cannot do this on a K10D. You can take a shot, get a color review, and then, in review mode, manually convert that shot to black and white. But that's a different thing. While you're shooting on the K10D, hitting the Fn button (as you for example to change the ISO or white balance), the OK button does nothing.

Will

robgo2 · 04-11-2009, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Palu Guimaraes

Hi all pentaxians friends.

I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing.

Palu

Why, exactly, do you not want to do this on your computer? Using readily available digital editing software, B&W conversions are ridiculously simple and far superior to what your K10D will do on its own.

Rob

WMBP · 04-11-2009, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by robgo2

Why, exactly, do you not want to do this on your computer? Using readily available digital editing software, B&W conversions are ridiculously simple and far superior to what your K10D will do on its own.

Rob,

I understand both sides of this discussion. Basically, I'm with you: I am very happy to do my black and white conversions on the computer where I have more options than the camera can ever provide. And when I'm shooting I can often tell before I point the camera and shoot whether a particular scene is going to make a good black and white conversion or not. And finally I don't mind looking at a color preview - when I do bother to chimp my shots, which isn't all the time. After all, I shot black and white film for a couple of decades and never had the option of seeing anything at all right after the shot, and somehow I survived!

But I can imagine that some black and white photographers might prefer to chimp their shots in black and white. If you're going to peek at your photos on the camera, might as well see something close to what you're trying to get. This I'm sure is why the K20D added this option that was not there before. I don't use it personally but I can see how somebody might find it useful.

Will

res3567 · 04-11-2009, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by WMBP

Rob,

I understand both sides of this discussion. Basically, I'm with you: I am very happy to do my black and white conversions on the computer where I have more options than the camera can ever provide. And when I'm shooting I can often tell before I point the camera and shoot whether a particular scene is going to make a good black and white conversion or not. And finally I don't mind looking at a color preview - when I do bother to chimp my shots, which isn't all the time. After all, I shot black and white film for a couple of decades and never had the option of seeing anything at all right after the shot, and somehow I survived!

But I can imagine that some black and white photographers might prefer to chimp their shots in black and white. If you're going to peek at your photos on the camera, might as well see something close to what you're trying to get. This I'm sure is why the K20D added this option that was not there before. I don't use it personally but I can see how somebody might find it useful.

Will

Yes. I would wnt that option also if I am mentally picturing a shot in B&W and wanted to see it instantly.

OregonJim · 04-11-2009, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by WerTicus

imagine if the sensor was black and white, it would have the same advantages of b+w film, massive dynamic range and a lot sharper because no need for the colour filter.

hmmmmmm

The sensor IS black & white. In fact, all sensors are. They just have a color filter in front of each pixel (some green, some red, some blue) to make the monochrome pixel more sensitive to a single color. Remove the filter, and you'd have a great black & white camera.

res3567 · 04-11-2009, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by OregonJim

The sensor IS black & white. In fact, all sensors are. They just have a color filter in front of each pixel (some green, some red, some blue) to make the monochrome pixel more sensitive to a single color. Remove the filter, and you'd have a great black & white camera.

I have heard of removing the IR cutoff filter to acheive IR shooting. Is this the same?

04-11-2009, 07:01 AM	#1
Palu Guimaraes Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Porto - Portugal Posts: 29	black and white shooting Hi all pentaxians friends. Please forgive me if you think that my question is too amateur, but I own a pentax K10D for two years by now and I love it. I bought it from the US, since it was much cheaper than in Portugal. The question is this: - Is there any way I can shoot in black and white? (like in many compact cameras) I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing. Thank you in advance. Regards, Palu

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04-11-2009, 08:03 AM	#2
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,975	Originally posted by Palu Guimaraes Hi all pentaxians friends. Please forgive me if you think that my question is too amateur, but I own a pentax K10D for two years by now and I love it. I bought it from the US, since it was much cheaper than in Portugal. The question is this: - Is there any way I can shoot in black and white? (like in many compact cameras) I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing. Thank you in advance. Regards, Palu Unfortunately for what you need, digital is a colour process, and the cameras are set up with that in mind. I think menus and post processing are the only route you have. It's still easier than shooting B&W film, processing it and printing it.

04-11-2009, 08:33 AM	#3
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by Wheatfield Unfortunately for what you need, digital is a colour process, and the cameras are set up with that in mind. I think menus and post processing are the only route you have. It's still easier than shooting B&W film, processing it and printing it. Just not as much fun.

04-11-2009, 08:59 AM	#4
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	No idea if the K10D can shoot B&W - I know some others can - but it's trivially simple to set up a preset to batch process a whole bunch of images to change them to B&W in just seconds, with most PP software.

04-11-2009, 09:26 AM	#5
WerTicus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Perth Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,514	imagine if the sensor was black and white, it would have the same advantages of b+w film, massive dynamic range and a lot sharper because no need for the colour filter. hmmmmmm

04-11-2009, 10:08 AM	#6
Lazaruscomeout Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Grimsby, Ontario, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 153	Originally posted by WerTicus imagine if the sensor was black and white, it would have the same advantages of b+w film, massive dynamic range and a lot sharper because no need for the colour filter. hmmmmmm Interesting point. If I understand the way a sensor works, then it would triple the effective resolution for the same MPs. Gerry

04-11-2009, 10:53 AM	#7
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	The K20D can easily generate B&W JPGs with various filter effects. Don't know about the K10D, don't have one, and haven't seen the manual - does it have a SHOOTING SETTINGS section? Yes, it's possible to do various B&W conversions in PP, all more or less satisfactory. Ah, a filterless panchromatic sensor - it would actually have quadruple resolution, as the filter sets up a RGBG matrix. THAT would be awesome, but who will produce it? It's likely only economically feasible on interchangeable-back cams. Let's start lobbying the sensor makers, eh?

04-11-2009, 11:33 AM	#8
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	Originally posted by Palu Guimaraes The question is this: - Is there any way I can shoot in black and white? (like in many compact cameras). I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing. Palu, First, the sensor in your camera records colors. You can't tell it NOT to save that info, and in my opinion, saving that info is a good thing. I am sure that I get better black and white conversions in Lightroom because the underlying color info is there and I can work with it. In other words, in an inital black and white conversion, the subject's red sweater might appear to be the same "color" - same shade of gray - as the green grass she's standing on. But on the computer, in Lightroom and many other programs, I can adjust the green channel and make the grass lighter without affecting the red channel. I personally wouldn't want to give up that info even if it were possible. That said, on the Pentax K20D, it is possible to ask the camera to show you a black and white conversion in the preview screen. I don't use it often, but I suppose some people might like it if they knew they were going to convert to black and white on the computer they just wanted to get an idea if the exposure was working okay for that purpose. This option is accessed via the Fn button. Click Fn, then click OK and select the color option that you prefer. "BW" (black and white) is the last option. NOTE that, if you use this option and you shoot raw, you don't lose the color info. You just get a black and white preview and a black and white embedded jpeg. Don't have my K10D handy to confirm but I'm pretty sure this isn't an option on the K10D. Will

04-11-2009, 11:51 AM	#9
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	Originally posted by WMBP ... Don't have my K10D handy to confirm but I'm pretty sure this isn't an option on the K10D... Sure it is. See Manual, p95-97 "Processing Images with Filters". One of them being B&W. But I believe this is what the OP was refering to. Quote: ... I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing. ...

04-11-2009, 12:33 PM	#10
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	Originally posted by Bart Sure it is. See Manual, p95-97 "Processing Images with Filters". One of them being B&W. Bart, Just checked my K10D. The difference between the K20D and the K10D that I was thinking of is that, on the K20D, you can select black and white as the default option for instant playback/instant review. In other words, you take a shot and a second later you can see a black and white review of the shot on the camera's display, without having to do anything. As I said, the option to see black and white instant playback is accessed, while you're in shooting mode, via Fn > OK... You cannot do this on a K10D. You can take a shot, get a color review, and then, in review mode, manually convert that shot to black and white. But that's a different thing. While you're shooting on the K10D, hitting the Fn button (as you for example to change the ISO or white balance), the OK button does nothing. Will

04-11-2009, 02:38 PM	#11
robgo2 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Mexico Photos: Albums Posts: 1,125	Originally posted by Palu Guimaraes Hi all pentaxians friends. I know that after shooting I can "play with" different modes, but what I would love was the possibility of doing it without having to navigate through menus and of course without post-editing. Palu Why, exactly, do you not want to do this on your computer? Using readily available digital editing software, B&W conversions are ridiculously simple and far superior to what your K10D will do on its own. Rob

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04-11-2009, 03:52 PM	#12
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	Originally posted by robgo2 Why, exactly, do you not want to do this on your computer? Using readily available digital editing software, B&W conversions are ridiculously simple and far superior to what your K10D will do on its own. Rob, I understand both sides of this discussion. Basically, I'm with you: I am very happy to do my black and white conversions on the computer where I have more options than the camera can ever provide. And when I'm shooting I can often tell before I point the camera and shoot whether a particular scene is going to make a good black and white conversion or not. And finally I don't mind looking at a color preview - when I do bother to chimp my shots, which isn't all the time. After all, I shot black and white film for a couple of decades and never had the option of seeing anything at all right after the shot, and somehow I survived! But I can imagine that some black and white photographers might prefer to chimp their shots in black and white. If you're going to peek at your photos on the camera, might as well see something close to what you're trying to get. This I'm sure is why the K20D added this option that was not there before. I don't use it personally but I can see how somebody might find it useful. Will

04-11-2009, 08:09 PM	#13
res3567 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Houston Tx. Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,876	Originally posted by WMBP Rob, I understand both sides of this discussion. Basically, I'm with you: I am very happy to do my black and white conversions on the computer where I have more options than the camera can ever provide. And when I'm shooting I can often tell before I point the camera and shoot whether a particular scene is going to make a good black and white conversion or not. And finally I don't mind looking at a color preview - when I do bother to chimp my shots, which isn't all the time. After all, I shot black and white film for a couple of decades and never had the option of seeing anything at all right after the shot, and somehow I survived! But I can imagine that some black and white photographers might prefer to chimp their shots in black and white. If you're going to peek at your photos on the camera, might as well see something close to what you're trying to get. This I'm sure is why the K20D added this option that was not there before. I don't use it personally but I can see how somebody might find it useful. Will Yes. I would wnt that option also if I am mentally picturing a shot in B&W and wanted to see it instantly.

04-11-2009, 09:10 PM	#14
OregonJim Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon Posts: 1,327	Originally posted by WerTicus imagine if the sensor was black and white, it would have the same advantages of b+w film, massive dynamic range and a lot sharper because no need for the colour filter. hmmmmmm The sensor IS black & white. In fact, all sensors are. They just have a color filter in front of each pixel (some green, some red, some blue) to make the monochrome pixel more sensitive to a single color. Remove the filter, and you'd have a great black & white camera.

04-11-2009, 09:41 PM	#15
res3567 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Houston Tx. Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,876	Originally posted by OregonJim The sensor IS black & white. In fact, all sensors are. They just have a color filter in front of each pixel (some green, some red, some blue) to make the monochrome pixel more sensitive to a single color. Remove the filter, and you'd have a great black & white camera. I have heard of removing the IR cutoff filter to acheive IR shooting. Is this the same?