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04-16-2007, 04:57 AM   #1
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Other K10D questions then.

So how effective is Shake Reduction as this is a major feature for this body.

Secondly, how do you benefit from the unique modes the K10D supports ie. ISO sensativity mode etc? Likewise the Shutter & Aperture AE mode? Do most people simply make use of Tv and Av here?

How does the K10D perform compared to others above ISO 800 WRT to noise?

Who actually uses raw processing inside the camera?

What if any is the downside of having no AF assist lamp?

04-16-2007, 05:10 AM   #2
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"SR"

QuoteOriginally posted by steffi Quote
So how effective is Shake Reduction as this is a major feature for this body.

Secondly, how do you benefit from the unique modes the K10D supports ie. ISO sensativity mode etc? Likewise the Shutter & Aperture AE mode? Do most people simply make use of Tv and Av here?

How does the K10D perform compared to others above ISO 800 WRT to noise?

Who actually uses raw processing inside the camera?

What if any is the downside of having no AF assist lamp?
I have actually done some images at night that would have had to be shot at 1600 iso to have been acceptable. I shot this using the Pentax 40 Limited lens on my K10D, effectively 60mm in 35mm format at 1/15 th of a second at 400iso. This is quite an accomplishment because theoretically, I should have been shooting at 1/60th of a second. In this example I gained a full 2 stops. I have seen good results up to 3.5 stops.

Here is that sample which you may also view in the gallery.

Last edited by benjikan; 02-07-2013 at 06:03 PM.
04-16-2007, 05:48 AM   #3
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Here is a good test, which is simple, systematic and objective:-

Digital SLR and Lens Review: Testing K10D and K100D Shake Reduction

QuoteOriginally posted by steffi Quote
So how effective is Shake Reduction as this is a major feature for this body.

Secondly, how do you benefit from the unique modes the K10D supports ie. ISO sensativity mode etc? Likewise the Shutter & Aperture AE mode? Do most people simply make use of Tv and Av here?

How does the K10D perform compared to others above ISO 800 WRT to noise?

Who actually uses raw processing inside the camera?

What if any is the downside of having no AF assist lamp?
04-16-2007, 06:02 AM   #4
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Let me preface by saying that I use a K100D, not a K10D, but I find the SR system to be more than adequate. With film my "preferred" shutter speed was usually 1/60-1/125, but with SR I routinely adjust the aperture for a shutter speed of 1/10-1/20, giving me an extra 2.5 stops or so and allowing me to shoot indoors at night at ISO 800. And because it's in the body and not the lenses, for low-light portraits I can use an old manual 50/1.4 or 50/1.7 and they work wonderfully.

I took these in the middle of the night using a SMC Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, 1/15 sec @ f/2.8 and ISO 800: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/5655-seeing-wh...-7-can-do.html

04-16-2007, 06:02 AM   #5
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Interesting set of questions.

The effectiveness of the SR will (to a certain extent) depend on how steady you are. It helps me out quite a bit, letting me take pictures with a longer lens and at longer shutter speeds than I would normally be able to manage. Other people might not find it particularly useful, especially if they always use fast shutter speeds, tripods and wide angle lenses.

I happen to use the Sv mode every so often, because of the way I keep my camera set up. As a general rule, I don't like much noise in my pictures, so I have the camera set up for auto ISO up to 800. However, I went to an indoor horse show recently and wanted as fast a shutter speed as I could get. It was neat to quickly switch to Sv (set at 1600) to take the pictures inside, rather than having to go through a menu and possibly forgetting to change it back when I was done (something I've done more than once!). While I certainly wouldn't buy a camera based on this particular feature, it's been real convenient to have it.

Can't offer a comparison with other models - I only have Pentax cameras. I do know that with a little Neat Image and some pp, the pictures I took at the horse show were useable from a noise standpoint (though I need a faster lens to do this on a regular basis - some motion blur due to the lighting conditions).
04-16-2007, 06:29 AM   #6
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Shooting mode

Pentax truly has the best shooting modes of any camera out there. (I think there is a thread about it.)
I happily only use Av, mainly because of the excellent firmware 1.1 update which added ISO support directly from the OK button. I never use the Fn button to change ISO - I always use the OK button. I have aperture on the front dial, exposure compensation on the back, and ISO on the OK - those three parameters are all you need. (Substitute shutter speed while in Tv mode for certain shooting styles/needs.)

But the best part is that there are many options for just about everyone. More than the other brands, too.
04-16-2007, 06:34 AM   #7
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I haven't processed this yet, but looking at a RAW image from this weekend, I've got a shot at 103mm with the Sigma 70-200 EX, ISO 1250 Wide open and 1/10 second on a monopod, and it astounded me that it is perfectly acceptable for the conditions. It is not tack sharp, but it isn't bad either. I'll try to post it later this week.
04-16-2007, 06:43 AM   #8
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I can usually get away with an extra stop or two.

04-16-2007, 07:05 AM   #9
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Good Morning Steffi,

Well, it's morning where I am; accept it as a pleasant greeting whatever the time of day might be where you are. I complement you on your resilience. After yesterdays barrage, I thought you might give up and disappear.

Not to restart the shutter lag discussion, but I went and got a manual camera(3 different brands), an early electronic offering, a modern simple electronic unit, a top of the line fully auto film body (2), and three different digital SLRs (4 bodies). I'm surprised by what I felt!

The all manual units have a long take-up before a sold release point can be felt, then a small hard spot that causes an almost impossible to determine point of release and a small travel to the stop of the button motion. Much like feeling two surfaces rub until the magic moment when it fires.

The modern electronic releases were actually quite similar: a take-up period where slack is removed, a stiff point and then pop. As I traveled up the scale toward more professional bodies the slack became less and less and the stiff part more and more distinct. But I was never able to discern any exact release point except on the PZ-1p-that has a very soft, nearly inaudible click.

The digitals were all similar: very short slack period, a stiffening and then pop. No click, no exact point of fire. Again as I went from model to model and higher and higher toward the professional models the action became shorter and short. The K10d's that I have are positively hair-triggered compared to the *-ist D or any film electronic camera and so far from the feel of an old manual as to not be comparable.


There is a lot of activity with the auto capable camera's: focus, exposure and who knows what else. With the K10d you need to turn all that off and work in manual to feel-out the shutter release. And you must have both proper exposure settings and something in focus because so much of the electronics is still operating when the user thinks it's off that you would be surprised.

In a quiet room, with proper subject, light and some time to reflect on all that happened yesterday, then actually testing revealed that the K10d is almost alive in one's hand as you go about taking photos. As long as one goes with the feeling it seems to work just fine, but... Spooky.




Shake reduction is one of those, gotta-feel-it things. You know it's on because you can check the switch, but you don't really feel anything. Later when you examine the EXIF and see some of the truly strange low exposure value setting is when it becomes most impressive. But like before it's almost a mystical thing; as you set yourself for a shot, you get this feeling that SR is right over your shoulder making sure things work-out well.




I've shot all the modes on both bodies. This is a no frills camera-no scene modes, no free lunch so to speak. Each mode has a particular thinking that is required. Just because you set Av priority, don't stop thinking about Aperture. Don't worry about it, but never just give-in and let the camera do the work--that's an unpleasant surprise in progress!

Unlike other cameras, one must keep the K10 shooting mode constantly in the back of the mind and use techniques that compliment the mode. And take careful note of Manual. You need a very complete understanding of exposure if you want that to work.




Noise is so dependent on proper exposure technique that I feel people who have noise problems have simply shut off their own brains. I shoot a lot of sports action. And then switch to more pedestrian subjects like family snaps and slow moving event photography. Hundreds of frames per hour, dozens and dozens of games and events. Inside and outside. At all ISO. Compared to similar shooting activities with the *Ist-D, my post processing for noise is almost non-existent. Noise just isn't a problem if the exposures are well considered.




RAW conversion in camera is very good; again it all depends on how optimal the exposure settings might be. And the WB. If you shot slide film extensively, and you did it right, then RAW conversion in the camera will give you immediately printable results, straight from the camera.

Any adverse lighting condition is problematic for any auto focus/auto exposure camera, period. As the light's exposure value drops, the user must compensate with manual focus/more careful metering, even to the point of trickery (i.e. focus on something you can see, lock it, then recompose).

The K10d's auto focus and auto exposure systems are very sensitive to small changes. Here again the term hair-trigger seems to apply. If there is a bright reflection and one drags a sensor across it while composing the scene, the camera will respond. If something moves across the frame it may re-focus. As more and more automation is engaged, the user will first find oneself in a tug-of-war with what the camera thinks is proper. With all automation engaged it may become all-out combat!




The K10d is fun to shoot!

It's no frills.

It will behave only when the user is in full control.

It requires practice.

It will produce prints that are an exact representation of the users skill and knowledge! This is undoubtedly the source of many peoples 'problems' with the device!


QuoteOriginally posted by steffi Quote
So how effective is Shake Reduction as this is a major feature for this body.

Secondly, how do you benefit from the unique modes the K10D supports ie. ISO sensativity mode etc? Likewise the Shutter & Aperture AE mode? Do most people simply make use of Tv and Av here?

How does the K10D perform compared to others above ISO 800 WRT to noise?

Who actually uses raw processing inside the camera?

What if any is the downside of having no AF assist lamp?
04-16-2007, 07:17 AM   #10
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I've used the RAW to jpg conversion in camera. It's very, very basic, so you have to get the image right in the first place, but it's useful. I always shoot in RAW, but there have been several instances where I needed a jpg right then, and was able to get one with a minimum of fiddling.
04-16-2007, 07:45 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by steffi Quote
So how effective is Shake Reduction as this is a major feature for this body.

Secondly, how do you benefit from the unique modes the K10D supports ie. ISO sensativity mode etc? Likewise the Shutter & Aperture AE mode? Do most people simply make use of Tv and Av here?

How does the K10D perform compared to others above ISO 800 WRT to noise?

Who actually uses raw processing inside the camera?

What if any is the downside of having no AF assist lamp?
With the SR i have managed to constantly get between 2 and 4 stops improvement, depending on what lens, some are easier to hold steady so SR is less effective.

TAv mode is useful for variable lighting conditions when you know what you need for your results, for example i shoot live music shows in bars, i know that i can freeze the action at 1/100th, and i only need f2.8 to cover the D0F requirements, that leave ISO as a variable, now i used to set it to 800 ISO and M mode with my DS and get 1 out of every three shots because the other two were either under or over exposed, by allowing the camera to control the ISO, that will allow me to adapt to the dynamic lighting and increase the number of shots that are usable.

I shoot RAW exclusively, and a couple of weeks ago i was on a shoot and they need a shot that minute, the two laptops i had access to had no RAW converters on them, usually i would have been stuffed but i was able to do an in camera coversion, saved the day infact.

I was using a D70 for a job, found out after that one, it had an AF assist lamp, and two, it was no good because i had managed to cover it. Never felt the need for one, i have found that in situations where it is need i have an external flash on any way, thus there is no need for the on camera AF beam.
04-16-2007, 08:12 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by steffi Quote
So how effective is Shake Reduction as this is a major feature for this body.

Secondly, how do you benefit from the unique modes the K10D supports ie. ISO sensativity mode etc? Likewise the Shutter & Aperture AE mode? Do most people simply make use of Tv and Av here?

How does the K10D perform compared to others above ISO 800 WRT to noise?

Who actually uses raw processing inside the camera?

What if any is the downside of having no AF assist lamp?
Good questions, to which there have been some good answers already. I will add my $.02....

In my simple test of shooting the same detailed pattern scene back to back, with and without the SR turned on I find that it works very well. Exact results will vary depending on steadiness. It does what it is supposed to do, which is give you a little extra flexibility with regard to shutter speed.

Some of us have been shooting since long before digital and use the older modes out of habit more than anything. I tried the TAV mode out once and thought it was quite cool to have, but it's usefulness would depend on the type of photography you were doing. Probably one of the coolest modes in the Pentax line up has been there since the early '90's and that is Hyper Program. The "P" mode is a crutch in most other cameras, doing nothing more than shift the settings for one shot. Hyper Program instantly turns the camera over to Shutter priority or Aperture priority with a single touch of one of the dials, and leaves it there until the green button is pushed. Very useful in many situations.

Pentax is fairly noisy at high ISO. It is so for a reason - too much noise reduction causes a loss of detail. Pentax has chosen to let you determine the amount of detail you want to lose by letting you apply noise reduction through 3rd party software. It is a decision that I am happy with. Post production noise reduction offers far more control than in camera.

I used the in camera RAW process once. I am a dedicated Photoshop user and have adding Lightroom to my workflow recently. I don't think I will be using the camera to try to compete with those apps.

Flowers don't mind the AF lamp on cameras. People do. I find AF lamps to be a problem when shooting people, even when they are aware of you shooting them, worse if you are trying to be candid. Since the bulk of my income is weddings and portraits I am glad it does not have an AF lamp. If I need it really bad it is available through the pop-up flash.
04-16-2007, 10:35 AM   #13
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Hi Steffi,

I don't think that I can add a lot to what has been said, but I will try. I have a K100, not the K10, but the SR is essentially the same (perhaps identical). While I have not directly compared it to IS or VR lenses, I can say that it does work as advertised. It is simply the best value out there for image stabilization. My K100 cost me an extra $100 above a K110 (now only $50 extra), and gives me the ability to have all of my lenses stabilized. That $100 MIGHT have paid for IS on one Canon or Nikon lens. I suppose it comes down to budget and need. I wanted stabilized lenses. I needed an affordable solution. I could have bought a D50 without any stabilization, and hoped to afford VR lenses in the future, or a K100 with the in-body SR. I'm not disappointed with my choice.
As far as the lack of AF assist lamp, the AF still works in most low-light conditions. Occassionally I find it cannot lock focus, but not often. Sometimes focus does hunt for a while in low light, but I have found that once the camera does achieve focus, it is very accurate, even in very low light. As Dave said, the on-board flash can be used for focus assist, and I beleive the Pentax flash units have a focus assist lamp in them.
I can't comment on Raw or Noise, as they are both different between the K100 and K10.

Chris

55mm (82mm equivalent), ISO 800, 1/20 sec., SR on, Pentax K100
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PENTAX K100D  Photo 

Last edited by silverbullet; 04-16-2007 at 10:42 AM.
04-16-2007, 03:08 PM   #14
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You know, SR works so seemlessly in everyday shooting, that I often wonder if it really does work.
Here are 2 examples from over the weekend. Now these are not great photographs, so lets not get too critical, I offer them as an illustration of just what SR is capable of.

The shooting conditions were very dark ISO1250 custom WB and I used a monopod. I will show 2 versions of each, 1 unsharpenened, the other with USM at 120% and 1.2 radius.

Given the conditions, I'd say the combination of a monopod and SR is capable of some astounding results under certain conditions.

Pentax K10D ,Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX APO IF 1/15s f/3.2 at 200.0mm iso1250 - Unsharpened


Pentax K10D ,Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX APO IF 1/15s f/3.2 at 200.0mm iso1250 -Sharpened


Pentax K10D ,Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX APO IF 1/10s f/2.8 at 103.0mm iso1250 - Unsharpened


Pentax K10D ,Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX APO IF 1/10s f/2.8 at 103.0mm iso1250 - Sharpened

04-16-2007, 10:58 PM   #15
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I had a Nikon before my current Pentax. It had an AF assist lamp as opposed to the Pentax flash strobe. The AF lamp worked MUCH better. If Pentax decided to put one in they could easily have a menu option to disable it for people who don't like it. I miss it.
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