...Certainly the K20D is not in the same league as the K20D...

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

[danielchtong]

Steve

(repeat three times..."Cars are not Cameras"...)

Agreed that cars are not cameras. But the absurdity (or should I say irrelevance) of comparing consumer items of so much difference in $ terms, in quality and in expectation remains the same. Read the heading


Daniel

[chhayanat]

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

And on reading this again, I have to disagree as well: of course, the Nikon D700 was meant.

[distudio]

Agreed that cars are not cameras. But the absurdity (or should I say irrelevance) of comparing consumer items of so much difference in $ terms, in quality and in expectation remains the same. Read the heading

It's impossible to draw the car to camera analogy with any kind of relevance, one is a one off purchase, buy, use, discard and the other is a system, buy, upgrade, sell, buy, buy, sell, etc. I've had Pentax gear for 20 years and the only way I can fit the car analogy is to say that I have a Ferrari (lenses) but the only engine (camera) I can get for it now lame normally aspirated 1.3l 4cyl ;-)

If what I needed was there for the price I'd buy it, I'm not interested in something that records video (whatever that is) for $1500, I'd rather buy a decent camera to better match the capabilities of my lenses for $2500.

[reknelb]

If what I needed was there for the price I'd buy it, I'm not interested in something that records video (whatever that is) for $1500, I'd rather buy a decent camera to better match the capabilities of my lenses for $2500.

Amen.

I have no interest in video, liveview, articulating lcd's. Just give me a fast camera with a good sensor. I don't really care about sensor size either, as long as the images are nice and high iso is good-excellent. All this other stuff is gimicky fluff, sorry.

[danielchtong]

It's impossible to draw the car to camera analogy with any kind of relevance, one is a one off purchase, buy, use, discard and the other is a system, buy, upgrade, sell, buy, buy, sell, etc.

I was referring to the absurdity (or should I say irrelevance) of comparing consumer items of so much difference in $ terms (3 - 4x ) , in quality and in expectation. I just pick up car as an example similar to a dslr, or plasma tv or camorder or ....

If what I needed was there for the price I'd buy it, I'm not interested in something that records video (whatever that is) for $1500, I'd rather buy a decent camera to better match the capabilities of my lenses for $2500.

I have no interest in video, liveview, articulating lcd's. Just give me a fast camera with a good sensor. I don't really care about sensor size either, as long as the images are nice and high iso is good-excellent. All this other stuff is gimicky fluff, sorry.

Well nobody can take out one parameter out of many. To have a super quiet car you need V8 or V12. And once you change one parameter, all the others have to be changed as well e.g. size/wt of car, rigidity, suspension, soundproofness.....
I suppose people can imagine the technological wonder of a 10 fps camera with the mirror slapping 10 times a second . And between each of the 10 slaps (1/10 s) all the exposure and focus tracking and confirmation have to be completed. And the problem is further compounded if the subject is a moving subject with changing lighting condition.

I am not defending Pentax; likewise I am not going to defend the car that I have been driving -an Accord and the third in a row. I am a consumer and I strive to get the best deal.

Daniel

[WerTicus]

In terms of price difference, it is almost like Herman was testing drive a Corolla in a car showroom and afterwards he also did a BMW 7 series sportcar or an Audi v8.
Daniel

yes but a better car to correlate the k20d to would be the Subraru WRX or Mutsubishi EVO cars, because they also have value for money performance :P

[Wheatfield]

yes but a better car to correlate the k20d to would be the Subraru WRX or Mutsubishi EVO cars, because they also have value for money performance :P

Fer Christs sake, first you people say we can't compare cameras to each other unless they cost exactly the same (as stupid a rational as I've heard), and then you go on to compare cameras to cars.
At what point did rationality and intelligence leave and idiocy take over?
No need to answer, it was entry #8.
This thread has devolved to knee jerk fanboyisms. Why don't you people go take some pictures?

[danielchtong]

Fer Christs sake, first you people say we can't compare cameras to each other unless they cost exactly the same (as stupid a rational as I've heard), and then you go on to compare cameras to cars.

There is no comparison with cars. There was an analogy of comparing two products ( could be car or TV or camcorder...) with a price tag of 3-4 times in difference.

To compare K20D with D700 is like comparing Corolla with BMW 5 or even 7 series.



Daniel

[Wheatfield]

There is no comparison with cars. There was an analogy of comparing two products ( could be car or TV or camcorder...) with a price tag of 3-4 times in difference.

To compare K20D with D700 is like comparing Corolla with BMW 5 or even 7 series.
Daniel

I guess the real question is why are you comparing cars on a camera forum in the first place?
If I recall, the OP wanted to know why the noise was better in the D700 than the K20.
By your logic, the answer is "This isn't a valid question".
That logic is a flawed as comparing cameras to cars in the first place.

[HermanLee]

Well fyi, I'm not trying to bash K20D by comparing it to D700.
What I want to know is exactly what feature on D700 that makes the obvious difference that I saw. Is it because of the DR / pixel size / software / other "X" factor that I'm not aware of.
I know for sure that it is ridiculous to expect my $700 camera to perform at the same level of $2700 camera.

I think a lot of people have commented on it.
I would rather use the car analogy. In terms of price difference, it is almost like Herman was testing drive a Corolla in a car showroom and afterwards he also did a BMW 7 series sportcar or an Audi v8.

Daniel

Daniel, in case you missed my post up there on first page of this thread, I've quoted it here.
Again I must emphasize that I am NOT whining why my K20D is not as good as D700.
I'm just simply asking what exactly is the "Technical Thing" that makes the difference.

Maybe I should have rephrase my thread title to avoid this big misunderstanding.

I guess the real question is why are you comparing cars on a camera forum in the first place?
If I recall, the OP wanted to know why the noise was better in the D700 than the K20.
By your logic, the answer is "This isn't a valid question".
That logic is a flawed as comparing cameras to cars in the first place.

Wheatfield, THANK YOU for your understanding my real intention.

I can understand why every time people see ".... VS...." (in this case K20D VS D700) on a thread title, they become defensive.
But again, this is not that kind of thread. So for those who got emotional right away by reading my thread title, please....sit back, relax, and try to understand what the question really is

[Marc Sabatella]

I guess the real question is why are you comparing cars on a camera forum in the first place?
If I recall, the OP wanted to know why the noise was better in the D700 than the K20.
By your logic, the answer is "This isn't a valid question".
That logic is a flawed as comparing cameras to cars in the first place.

I think one can use the analogy quite effectively to answer the original question:

Q: why is D700 noise better than K20 noise
A: same reason a Ferrari performs better than Kia

This doesn't seem idiotic in the least to me - it quite elegantly captures an important and relevant aspect of the full technical explanation.

[Wheatfield]

I think one can use the analogy quite effectively to answer the original question:

Q: why is D700 noise better than K20 noise
A: same reason a Ferrari performs better than Kia

This doesn't seem idiotic in the least to me - it quite elegantly captures an important and relevant aspect of the full technical explanation.

Do they put internal combustion engines in cameras now? I knew these things were power hogs, but seriously.
Making this sort of comparison does nothing to answer the OP's question. At best it's just an elegant way of not answering it, or worse, an inelegant way of obfuscating the answer using typical apologist methodology.

He asked a question best answered with a technical explanation, not one that is best answered by nonsensical metaphors or fanboy complaints about unfair comparisons.

Wouldn't it be technically more accurate to just say that the noise floor of the D700 sensor is lower than the one in the K20, and that this is because of larger sensor sites being able to attract more photons than smaller ones?
This at least alludes to the technical advantage of low pixel density sensors to capture shadow detail and gives him a basis to do more research if he chooses to do so, without having to reasearch the complexities of internal combustion engines.

[danielchtong]

Wouldn't it be technically more accurate to just say that the noise floor of the D700 sensor is lower than the one in the K20, and that this is because of larger sensor sites being able to attract more photons than smaller ones?

Sir

You did that way back. You forgot that both (you) Wheatfield & Kenyee answered that (3rd & 5th response on first page).

You are seeing the advantage of a full frame sensor with large sensor sites.

Basic physics. The photosites measure the photons hitting the sensor. A bigger photosite (assuming similar technology) can measure more accurately.

Then people noticed the disparity in price

D700 $3,000
5dmkII $2,700
K20d $670

Daniel

[Wheatfield]

Sir

You did that way back. You forgot that both (you) Wheatfield & Kenyee answered that (3rd & 5th response on first page).

I'm well aware that his question was answered within the first 5 replies.

Then people noticed the disparity in price

Daniel

Yes, and this apology was followed by something like 65 replies that were little more than a thread hijack by the apologist brigade, and had nothing to do with the OPs original question.