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05-11-2009, 12:56 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by HermanLee Quote
Recently I got to play with a Nikon D700 and a Canon 5DM2 in the store when originally I was just going to test a DA*50-135.

I asked the salesman to put on a prime glass for D700 and he put on an 85mm/1.8.
My K20D has FA 43 Ltd on it.
Both camera set to manual mode, no flash, with f/2 and ISO 3200 because D700 has no Shake Reduction ...go Pentax!

I tried to shoot some people in the store and to my surprise, the D700 photo gain more Dynamic Range especially in dark area compared to my K20D.
The noise is also much cleaner than my K20D, almost noiseless. Nikon really excel in this ISO part with this camera.
Not so much I can say with 5DM2. I like the picture from D700 & K20D better than 5Dm2.

So, my question is. What makes the picture from D700 so much brighter in dark areas?
Is that because of much bigger Dynamic Range? or something else?
If it is because of DR, how much difference is it compared to K20D?

Thanks,

I see 3 potential reasons:

1 - Exposure. The K20d, in my brief experience, has a tendency to underexpose by a half stop or more in certain but not all situations. This could have happened with your handful of shots, resulting in much darker shadows than the D700

2 - LCD. Not only do the displays differ in pixel density, they probably also differ in other properties, i.e., brightness, off-axis viewing, color gamut, etc.... I've learned not to rely upon the K20d's display. Very often a shot that appears really dark is fine or just a little underexposed when viewed on a good, calibrated monitor.

I know that elsewhere in this thread you discount the variability of the LCD because of the Canon, but I don't think that's enough reason to remove it from consideration.

3 - Sensor + settings. FF vs. APS-C. Dmode vs. Non-dmode. etc... There are dozens of sites that attempt to quantitatively measure the differences.

Based on the conditions of the "test", and lacking any samples, I think that we are all just speculating on the root cause of your observed difference.


And while cameras don't have motors, I find the car example apt. The MazdaSpeed3 and BMW 3 series are both excellent cars, as are the K20d and D700 both excellent cameras. Only at their design limits do minor differences come to light.

The irony of mature product segments like this is that products are usually much more capable than their owners. Very few people have the skills to drive either the Mazda or BMW to their design limits. Likewise the K20d and D700.

05-11-2009, 01:06 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote

The irony of mature product segments like this is that products are usually much more capable than their owners. Very few people have the skills to drive either the Mazda or BMW to their design limits. Likewise the K20d and D700.
Come one, why another strawman?
The D700 shows better noise control, it's as simple as that. This isn't driving cars, it isn't about using a camera to it's design limits.
It's another apology.
Grow up.
05-11-2009, 02:02 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Come one, why another strawman?
The D700 shows better noise control, it's as simple as that. This isn't driving cars, it isn't about using a camera to it's design limits.
It's another apology.
Grow up.
Let me say that I am writing to a Corolla forum . And I say the other day I tried a BMW 7 sedan and I ask how come it is a lot quieter. And I ask Corolla forum members why and in what way it is quieter.


Daniel
05-11-2009, 02:21 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Come one, why another strawman?
The D700 shows better noise control, it's as simple as that. This isn't driving cars, it isn't about using a camera to it's design limits.
It's another apology.
Grow up.
It's nice to meet you too, Wheatfield.

05-11-2009, 02:26 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by distudio Quote
At high ISO it is literally down to the number of photons that can be collected vs the accumulated charge that they create in the photo sensor well during the given integration time. It's a physical limitation which relates to the photo site size. I believe that conversion efficiency is such that there will be little gain in sensitivity forthcoming to APS-C DSLR users (using silicon capture devices) without somehow distorting the laws of physics.
So how come the 5Dmk2 and D3X have such low noise, even compared to APS cameras with the same pixel pitch?
05-11-2009, 02:42 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by danielchtong Quote
To compare K20D with D700 is like comparing Corolla with BMW 5 or even 7 series.
I tend to disagree. While D700 may be a BMW, no way K20D is a Corolla.

I have both and enjoy both, most of the time and get upset by both sometimes. Pentax focusing, FF, BF you name it but then there is Nikon and it's silly AWB. Then comes D700 and its speed, great focusing screen versus Pentax and its so intuitive handling. Pentax underexposing versus Nikon overexposing...

I don't mention fps as that is of no importance for me as well as I don't mention D700 high ISO as it is a well known thing.

On the ISO... I'd love if D700 was native ISO 100. But, you can't have it all...

It would be great if things were as simple as most Pentax and/or Nikon fanboys make it. But it is not. At this point of digital technology available to public, both are really very capable cameras.

I guess anyone claiming otherwise would probably do better with D40 or whatever Pentax entry camera is.

Oh, there is one small thing to keep in mind: K20D with DA*55, 4 limited DA lenses, 540 Flash, batteries and other small things fit in a tiny Hama/Samsonite backpack while Nikon and few lenses call for something like Crumpler Daily 600. Not that Pentax does not get heavy after whole day of carrying it but it is much, much lighter and smaller than D700. Not as small as Leica D-Lux3, though.

All in all, I was hoping the differences between the two would be bigger but one has to try a really great camera like D700 to realize how good K20 is. And K10. too!
05-11-2009, 02:46 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Come one, why another strawman?
The D700 shows better noise control, it's as simple as that. This isn't driving cars, it isn't about using a camera to it's design limits.
It's another apology.
Grow up.
So the $2699.99* D700 has better noise control than the $699.99* K20D? Pentax should apologize immediately.

(*Prices from current B&H website.)
05-11-2009, 03:36 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sondek Quote
I tend to disagree. While D700 may be a BMW, no way K20D is a Corolla.
I was trying to stick to the rough disparity ratio

$BMW5 / $Corolla roughly = $ D700/ $ K20D



QuoteQuote:


All in all, I was hoping the differences between the two would be bigger but one has to try a really great camera like D700 to realize how good K20 is. And K10. too!
Very refreshing idea. I should try out a D700 with my K20D+ F50mmF1.7 combo

Daniel


Last edited by danielchtong; 05-11-2009 at 06:34 PM.
05-11-2009, 04:04 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sondek Quote
I tend to disagree. While D700 may be a BMW, no way K20D is a Corolla.
I didn't know BMW makes cameras! So, is the D700 a 335i, or a M3? Which camera is the M5?

Seriously, the car comparisons are lame.

And whoever said you need a V8 or V12 to have a quiet car....I highly disagree. All you need are earplugs, my friend.
05-11-2009, 04:07 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by danielchtong Quote
I was trying to stick to the rough disparity ratio

$BMW5 / $Corolla roughly = $ D700/ $ K20D
How about the Carls Jr $6.00 Burger / $0.99 Jumbo Jack comparison? It's about the same ratio too, especially once you add $0.30 for cheese on the JJ...
05-11-2009, 05:22 PM   #86
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Hmmm…….that got me wondering if the K20D is both "cheese-proof" as well as weather-sealed ? Could anyone say if it's really worth risking the warranty to find out ?

Best regards
Richard

Last edited by Confused; 05-11-2009 at 05:50 PM.
05-11-2009, 06:39 PM   #87
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The d700 sucks
05-11-2009, 06:40 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by vitalsax Quote
The d700 sucks
It's a Nikon.
It can't help itself.
05-11-2009, 07:24 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by edl Quote
I didn't know BMW makes cameras! So, is the D700 a 335i, or a M3? Which camera is the M5?
If D700 is the 335i then Nikon D3x or Canon 1DIII is equivalent to M5 then


QuoteQuote:
And whoever said you need a V8 or V12 to have a quiet car....I highly disagree. All you need are earplugs, my friend.
Agreed


QuoteOriginally posted by edl Quote
How about the Carls Jr $6.00 Burger / $0.99 Jumbo Jack comparison? It's about the same ratio too, especially once you add $0.30 for cheese on the JJ...
We do not have those chains up north in boring Canada.

Do they give you a creamy /yummy bokeh?


Daniel
05-11-2009, 07:35 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Making this sort of comparison does nothing to answer the OP's question
True. Fortunately, that question was already answered, as you've noted. The analogies help put that technical answer in a little perspective (and it helps answer the logical next question - why doesn't the K20D have a bigger sensor too?). If it's not perspective you personally find useful, or a question you wanted to hear the answer too, fine - feel free to ignore any further discussion of the topic. Please.
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