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05-13-2009, 10:21 PM   #121
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Wheatfield, from the "Wheatfields of Canada."

We have another poster here----

Ricehigh, from the Paddyfields of China


Any relation???

05-14-2009, 10:37 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
I personally shoot both cameras as well as an original Canon 5D and have some of the best glass for each camera.

The 5D sits in the studio on a shelf as a backup and a test mule.

The D700 and K20D are always with me and there is a big difference in IQ between the two.

The K20D underexposes roughly a 1/3 stop on every photo if it detects enough information in the highlights channel to save you from blowing the highlights. The tonality and contrast is also higher giving you a richer and more pleasing image quality.

The D700 will allow you to overexpose in many situations using it's 3D matrix metering if the highlight region is a small portion of the total image. The contrast and tonality is also lower giving you a flatter image but more workable in post. If you have Active D-lighting enabled it will exposed the shadow region even more giving you more headroom to save shadows but also makes the image appear brighter.

Both cameras render and image differently and yes the noise ratio is much better on the D700 vs ANY other camera on the market, but we are trying to compare an apple to an orange here. In all honesty I can never give up by Pentax system as the color quality and rendition is far superior to Canon and Nikons best right out of the camera and even after some manipulation. My only knock on Pentax is the images are harder to push in post and don't have the headroom for some of the tricker post techniques I use regularly.
Thank you for your insight, Chris.
What you explain here is exactly what I experienced with both cameras.
When I said that D700 seems gain more DR in dark area, I noticed that the whole picture seems brighter than from K20D.

So what do you think that cause this difference?
Is it just because of the sensor size or does Nikon apply different software/algorithm or add some other hardware that are not present in K20D?
05-14-2009, 10:40 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
Wheatfield, from the "Wheatfields of Canada."

We have another poster here----

Ricehigh, from the Paddyfields of China


Any relation???
Rice is closer to being a fanboy than I am.
05-14-2009, 10:41 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Oh! But the D700 would be a very BIG, HEAVY, and STRONG fish!

Steve
It's ok, if a bike can't carry it, it will still be able to drag it

Oh another thing, from a fish's point of view, a bike is more weather sealed than a fish.
Because a bike can stay functional in the water but a fish won't last a day on the land.

05-14-2009, 10:50 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
Analogical thinking is used on SAT, LSAT, and IQ tests to name but a few. It is a fantastic teaching & testing tool, no doubt about it. We must bear in mind, however, analogical thinking is a higher form of brain processing, one which separates man from the brutes. This is why you do not see it used to train, say, an ape. With the ape, a more direct approach is needed; one must approach the ape, at the ape's level.

What we can do is to re-work the original question, so that it answers itself:

How come the Nikon Coolpix S60 (cost=$250) ISO performance is so miserable in comparison to the Pentax K20d?

BTW, my re-working the question is meant only for one member of our audience here--it is not meant for the OP. I only do this because it is clear that all the well-intentioned work of so many good people has not been able to penetrate the head stronged, pathetic, and troubled soul.
I almost drowned in the sea of drivel while navigating this thread, until I found one lonely island of intelligent thought. Well done, Jewelltrail.
05-14-2009, 11:28 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by HermanLee Quote
TWhen I said that D700 seems gain more DR in dark area, I noticed that the whole picture seems brighter than from K20D.
That's why comparison pictures would help
Nikons tend to expose to the right more than Pentax does, but Nikon's exposure *will* blow highlights more as well. Pentax's exposure tries to preserve highlights as much as possible (which might not have been a good idea w/ the K20D because CMOS sensors have quite a bit more noise in the shadow areas than CCD sensors).
I have a friend who bought a D80 at the same time I bought my K10D and he always griped about blown highlights. We compared them both one day and confirmed the different exposure behavior.
He's now on a D90 and complains that there's a lot of noise in shadows and he can't pixel peep as much because the D80's sensor was much less grainy (same complaints from K10D users going to the K20D)...
05-14-2009, 11:47 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote


What we can do is to re-work the original question, so that it answers itself:

How come the Nikon Coolpix S60 (cost=$250) ISO performance is so miserable in comparison to the Pentax K20d?

From what I've gathered from reading this thread, this question isn't a valid one, for the same reason the question regarding the comparison between the K20 and D700 is not valid.
It's a pretty sad group of people here, really. You make any technical question where your precious Pentax doesn't fare so well into a comparison of the price tag rather than a comparison of the technology, and then belittle the people who don't buy into your red herring arguement.
05-14-2009, 01:12 PM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
That's why comparison pictures would help
Nikons tend to expose to the right more than Pentax does, but Nikon's exposure *will* blow highlights more as well. Pentax's exposure tries to preserve highlights as much as possible (which might not have been a good idea w/ the K20D because CMOS sensors have quite a bit more noise in the shadow areas than CCD sensors).
I have a friend who bought a D80 at the same time I bought my K10D and he always griped about blown highlights. We compared them both one day and confirmed the different exposure behavior.
He's now on a D90 and complains that there's a lot of noise in shadows and he can't pixel peep as much because the D80's sensor was much less grainy (same complaints from K10D users going to the K20D)...
I think what Chris is talking about is the RAW headroom in the D700 files.
Due to the extremely low noise floor it has a RAW potential that is almost unreal and still holds colour and tonality extremely well.

If we treat the resulting RAW as a "negative", then ideally you would want to expose all 3 colour channels to just before clipping at the sensors native ISO.
And then pull it back to desired levels in post.
UniWB, linear in camera tone curves and colour correction filters are all examples of taking this discipline to the extreme.
(just do not amke the mistake of showing a client the preview on camera as it will look rather messed up )
I am not saying either is better, as long as it is consistant I do not care if it over or underexpose a little by default.

Now the date about one vs. the other is a different matter and not one I find very interesting. I think both have their place. you cannot crossmount the glass afterall, so I would not want to skip either system entirely, but yes there is a difference, and how much it shows is clearly situation dependant.

05-14-2009, 10:31 PM   #129
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Some more on the Full Frame noise advantage of the D 700 here:

Nikon D700 review Cameralabs High ISO Noise results D700 vs D300 vs EOS 5D
05-14-2009, 10:56 PM   #130
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Here is the apple to apple comparison, well, uh, sort of. Two Full Framed cameras (A900 and D700) and their performance at high ISO. What is very nice about this discussion, is the crops are accessible at %100 for any who really like to investigate these things.


AnandTech: Sony A900: A Closer Look at 24.6MP Resolution and Noise


On the second link, note the "DSLR Sensor Comparison": chart. Take a look at the last column, entitled sensor density. This number is crucial for understanding performance of a sensor @ high ISO.

AnandTech: Sony A900: A Closer Look at 24.6MP Resolution and Noise
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