Shutter lag debate K10D

Darren M · 04-20-2007, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by RiceHigh

If the camera has a long shutter lag, then the finder black out time will be longer.

But the longer black out time can also be caused by a sluggish mirror return which is still undesirable anyway.

Actually, only measurbation and comparison will tell the answers! :-)

This is why nobody gives you even a tiny bit of respect; measurbation gives no answers to questions that matter. None.

I don't drop by here all that often, but it is good to know that you haven't changed RH. The only difference is that now people are laughing at you from a different URL.

wildboar · 04-20-2007, 09:13 AM

My 'lag' time is often over TWO SECONDS

... (using tripod, cable release, and mirror pre-fire). Maybe I need a new camera.

Jonas B · 04-20-2007, 09:26 AM

There is a shutter lag. I don't understand those posts about "There is NO shutterlag with dSLR cameras!"
Common sense tells you that the picture can't be taken the instant moment you press the trigger. Let's guess it is around 1/10 of a second (and no, I am not counting focusing and SR and stuff).

It's not the slowest on the market, it's not the fastest.

Now only the individual user can determine if the shutter lag is too long or if it can be lived with. I'm sure somebody can measure it for those interested in the exact numbers. To me the shutter lag is no problem. Maybe somebody coming from the faster pro cameras finds it objectionable in the beginning, maybe they can get used to it. Their call.

**jfdavis58** · 04-20-2007, 09:32 AM

Now shutter lag is based on individual feelings???? More BS from the master, if you ask me.

**jfdavis58** · 04-20-2007, 09:34 AM

Don't go and get practical on us now!

"Now only the individual user can determine if the shutter lag is too long or if it can be lived with. I'm sure somebody can measure it for those interested in the exact numbers. To me the shutter lag is no problem. Maybe somebody coming from the faster pro cameras finds it objectionable in the beginning, maybe they can get used to it. Their call."

IMAGINE THAT!

Originally posted by Jonas B

There is a shutter lag. I don't understand those posts about "There is NO shutterlag with dSLR cameras!"
Common sense tells you that the picture can't be taken the instant moment you press the trigger. Let's guess it is around 1/10 of a second (and no, I am not counting focusing and SR and stuff).

It's not the slowest on the market, it's not the fastest.

Now only the individual user can determine if the shutter lag is too long or if it can be lived with. I'm sure somebody can measure it for those interested in the exact numbers. To me the shutter lag is no problem. Maybe somebody coming from the faster pro cameras finds it objectionable in the beginning, maybe they can get used to it. Their call.

roscot · 04-20-2007, 10:02 AM

I don't normally read Ken Rockwell, but this seems to fit here.

Seven Levels of Photographers © 2005 KenRockwell.com

*I take no responsibility for the the contents of above link.

Jonas B · 04-20-2007, 10:02 AM

Damn. Here I was thinking my post was both sensible and perfectly balanced between practise and theories...

Originally posted by jfdavis58

Don't go and get practical on us now!

"Now only the individual user can determine if the shutter lag is too long or if it can be lived with. I'm sure somebody can measure it for those interested in the exact numbers. To me the shutter lag is no problem. Maybe somebody coming from the faster pro cameras finds it objectionable in the beginning, maybe they can get used to it. Their call."

IMAGINE THAT!

roscot · 04-20-2007, 10:05 AM

Hey RH,
You should be happy about this...
If you Google measuration look what comes up first.
measurbation - Google Search

davemdsn · 04-20-2007, 10:13 AM

The longer duration of sounds and of mirror black out are most likely the result of the SR mechanism. Who among us would give up SR in the K10D? I happen to like it. For all the complaining about lag and mirror black out, the camera still seems to capture the exact moment I intend for it to capture and it still pulls off 3 fps, which is plenty fast for me. Seems to me that all of this perceived lack of responsiveness hasn't effected the actual performance of the camera.

**jfdavis58** · 04-20-2007, 10:23 AM

:Google is my friend: Lag list one, and Lag list two. Not much on Pentax equipment. I've got a Pz1-P; I think both the K100d and the K10d are faster--significantly.

I can say one thing about shutter lag, with conviction: it will become infinite if you spend all your time measurebating and forget that the purpose of the shutter is taking pictures.

For grins and chuckles I searched for both shutter lag and human reaction time--do it your self, there is a wealth of information. The best trained reaction times are about 150ms; compared to a 50-60ms shutter lag it seems to me that humans are still the limiting factor.

Bob Wallace · 04-20-2007, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by davemdsn

The longer duration of sounds and of mirror black out are most likely the result of the SR mechanism. Who among us would give up SR in the K10D? I happen to like it. For all the complaining about lag and mirror black out, the camera still seems to capture the exact moment I intend for it to capture and it still pulls off 3 fps, which is plenty fast for me. Seems to me that all of this perceived lack of responsiveness hasn't effected the actual performance of the camera.

The total shutter lag in (most) dSLRs is short enough that many people just don't notice it. They learn to anticipate the critical moment a tenth of a second (or a few tenths, depending on the camera).

One also has to anticipate a bit to allow for human reaction time. (The time between when you think "Now!" and when your finger actually moves. This can be as long as the total shutter time in a fast camera.

That said, Canon seems to have put some effort in reducing the mirror movement time in their 1D MkIII. That sucker smokes....

**jfdavis58** · 04-20-2007, 10:30 AM

Check this out: Sleeping sheep. I placed near the bottom classification-and I shoot sports! Ha Ha

Dana G · 04-20-2007, 10:34 AM

How we didn't worry about shutter lag in the film days? You practiced with your camera, and a roll of cheap film, and used a pendulum. Trying to get the pendulum in the exact center would use up a few rolls of film. Then your instincts took over.

I think that because digital P&S cameras have a long delay between shutter press and actual exposure, we suddenly invented a whole new problem.

DSLR'S are like film SLR's. Not zippy like rangefinders but pretty much on a par with film cameras.

If you really want to see shutter lag on a pro film camera, get a medium format like the RB67, with its massive mirror that has to swing up before the shutter (in the lens) can fire!

roscot · 04-20-2007, 10:39 AM

LOL, I'm right back there with you John. Cute game though, reminds me of the old Kill Barney game a few years ago.

benjikan · 04-20-2007, 12:25 PM

Generally "My Finger Lag" is proportionate to how many espresso's I down before a shoot. The more coffee the less the "Finger Lag"...Hey what if I were to grease up my shutter with some steaming hot espresso. Do you think the camera might be less reluctant to get down to it? I think the shutter lag depends on how long the camera has been up. Generally it is best to wake the camera up about an hour before you plan on using it, so that it is fully awake.

A nice light breakfast helps as well. I suggest a freshly squeezed orange juice and some "Wasa" Biscuits lightly buttered and perhaps a few grapes stuffed inside the sensor just in case it gets hungry on those long photo excursions. That should definitely suffice until lunch. Make sure your camera is well insulated from the cold as well. We wouldn't want our cameras to catch cold. This would only add to the already "Lagging" shutter. Keep your index finger as dry as possible. Greasy fingers will only slow you down when needing to capture "That" picture you could only have captures with a camera with 0.0000000001 second shutter "LAG".

I hope this has been helpful to those wishing to improve their "Quick Finger" shutter technique.

Ben

04-20-2007, 12:25 PM	#30
benjikan Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,308	My Finger Lag and Other Remedies to Curing Shutter "Lag" Generally "My Finger Lag" is proportionate to how many espresso's I down before a shoot. The more coffee the less the "Finger Lag"...Hey what if I were to grease up my shutter with some steaming hot espresso. Do you think the camera might be less reluctant to get down to it? I think the shutter lag depends on how long the camera has been up. Generally it is best to wake the camera up about an hour before you plan on using it, so that it is fully awake. A nice light breakfast helps as well. I suggest a freshly squeezed orange juice and some "Wasa" Biscuits lightly buttered and perhaps a few grapes stuffed inside the sensor just in case it gets hungry on those long photo excursions. That should definitely suffice until lunch. Make sure your camera is well insulated from the cold as well. We wouldn't want our cameras to catch cold. This would only add to the already "Lagging" shutter. Keep your index finger as dry as possible. Greasy fingers will only slow you down when needing to capture "That" picture you could only have captures with a camera with 0.0000000001 second shutter "LAG". I hope this has been helpful to those wishing to improve their "Quick Finger" shutter technique. Ben Last edited by benjikan; 04-21-2007 at 01:42 AM.

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04-20-2007, 09:02 AM	#16
Darren M Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Taipei, Taiwan Posts: 130	Originally posted by RiceHigh If the camera has a long shutter lag, then the finder black out time will be longer. But the longer black out time can also be caused by a sluggish mirror return which is still undesirable anyway. Actually, only measurbation and comparison will tell the answers! :-) This is why nobody gives you even a tiny bit of respect; measurbation gives no answers to questions that matter. None. I don't drop by here all that often, but it is good to know that you haven't changed RH. The only difference is that now people are laughing at you from a different URL.

04-20-2007, 09:13 AM	#17
wildboar Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Columbus Ohio Posts: 158	My 'lag' time is often over TWO SECONDS ... (using tripod, cable release, and mirror pre-fire). Maybe I need a new camera.

04-20-2007, 09:26 AM	#18
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810	There is a shutter lag. I don't understand those posts about "There is NO shutterlag with dSLR cameras!" Common sense tells you that the picture can't be taken the instant moment you press the trigger. Let's guess it is around 1/10 of a second (and no, I am not counting focusing and SR and stuff). It's not the slowest on the market, it's not the fastest. Now only the individual user can determine if the shutter lag is too long or if it can be lived with. I'm sure somebody can measure it for those interested in the exact numbers. To me the shutter lag is no problem. Maybe somebody coming from the faster pro cameras finds it objectionable in the beginning, maybe they can get used to it. Their call.

04-20-2007, 09:32 AM	#19
jfdavis58 Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 13 S 0357397-3884316 Photos: Gallery Posts: 887	Now shutter lag is based on individual feelings???? More BS from the master, if you ask me.

04-20-2007, 09:34 AM	#20
jfdavis58 Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 13 S 0357397-3884316 Photos: Gallery Posts: 887	Don't go and get practical on us now! "Now only the individual user can determine if the shutter lag is too long or if it can be lived with. I'm sure somebody can measure it for those interested in the exact numbers. To me the shutter lag is no problem. Maybe somebody coming from the faster pro cameras finds it objectionable in the beginning, maybe they can get used to it. Their call." IMAGINE THAT! Originally posted by Jonas B There is a shutter lag. I don't understand those posts about "There is NO shutterlag with dSLR cameras!" Common sense tells you that the picture can't be taken the instant moment you press the trigger. Let's guess it is around 1/10 of a second (and no, I am not counting focusing and SR and stuff). It's not the slowest on the market, it's not the fastest. Now only the individual user can determine if the shutter lag is too long or if it can be lived with. I'm sure somebody can measure it for those interested in the exact numbers. To me the shutter lag is no problem. Maybe somebody coming from the faster pro cameras finds it objectionable in the beginning, maybe they can get used to it. Their call.

04-20-2007, 10:02 AM	#21
roscot Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach VA USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,363	I don't normally read Ken Rockwell, but this seems to fit here. Seven Levels of Photographers © 2005 KenRockwell.com *I take no responsibility for the the contents of above link.

04-20-2007, 10:02 AM	#22
Jonas B Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 810	Damn. Here I was thinking my post was both sensible and perfectly balanced between practise and theories... Originally posted by jfdavis58 Don't go and get practical on us now! "Now only the individual user can determine if the shutter lag is too long or if it can be lived with. I'm sure somebody can measure it for those interested in the exact numbers. To me the shutter lag is no problem. Maybe somebody coming from the faster pro cameras finds it objectionable in the beginning, maybe they can get used to it. Their call." IMAGINE THAT!

04-20-2007, 10:05 AM	#23
roscot Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach VA USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,363	Hey RH, You should be happy about this... If you Google measuration look what comes up first. measurbation - Google Search

04-20-2007, 10:13 AM	#24
davemdsn Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boise, Idaho Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,413	The longer duration of sounds and of mirror black out are most likely the result of the SR mechanism. Who among us would give up SR in the K10D? I happen to like it. For all the complaining about lag and mirror black out, the camera still seems to capture the exact moment I intend for it to capture and it still pulls off 3 fps, which is plenty fast for me. Seems to me that all of this perceived lack of responsiveness hasn't effected the actual performance of the camera.

04-20-2007, 10:23 AM	#25
jfdavis58 Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 13 S 0357397-3884316 Photos: Gallery Posts: 887	:Google is my friend: Lag list one, and Lag list two. Not much on Pentax equipment. I've got a Pz1-P; I think both the K100d and the K10d are faster--significantly. I can say one thing about shutter lag, with conviction: it will become infinite if you spend all your time measurebating and forget that the purpose of the shutter is taking pictures. For grins and chuckles I searched for both shutter lag and human reaction time--do it your self, there is a wealth of information. The best trained reaction times are about 150ms; compared to a 50-60ms shutter lag it seems to me that humans are still the limiting factor.

04-20-2007, 10:25 AM	#26
Bob Wallace Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bridgeville CA Posts: 73	Originally posted by davemdsn The longer duration of sounds and of mirror black out are most likely the result of the SR mechanism. Who among us would give up SR in the K10D? I happen to like it. For all the complaining about lag and mirror black out, the camera still seems to capture the exact moment I intend for it to capture and it still pulls off 3 fps, which is plenty fast for me. Seems to me that all of this perceived lack of responsiveness hasn't effected the actual performance of the camera. The total shutter lag in (most) dSLRs is short enough that many people just don't notice it. They learn to anticipate the critical moment a tenth of a second (or a few tenths, depending on the camera). One also has to anticipate a bit to allow for human reaction time. (The time between when you think "Now!" and when your finger actually moves. This can be as long as the total shutter time in a fast camera. That said, Canon seems to have put some effort in reducing the mirror movement time in their 1D MkIII. That sucker smokes....

04-20-2007, 10:30 AM	#27
jfdavis58 Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 13 S 0357397-3884316 Photos: Gallery Posts: 887	Check this out: Sleeping sheep. I placed near the bottom classification-and I shoot sports! Ha Ha

04-20-2007, 10:34 AM	#28
Dana G Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Masachusetts Posts: 243	How we didn't worry about shutter lag in the film days? You practiced with your camera, and a roll of cheap film, and used a pendulum. Trying to get the pendulum in the exact center would use up a few rolls of film. Then your instincts took over. I think that because digital P&S cameras have a long delay between shutter press and actual exposure, we suddenly invented a whole new problem. DSLR'S are like film SLR's. Not zippy like rangefinders but pretty much on a par with film cameras. If you really want to see shutter lag on a pro film camera, get a medium format like the RB67, with its massive mirror that has to swing up before the shutter (in the lens) can fire!

04-20-2007, 10:39 AM	#29
roscot Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach VA USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,363	LOL, I'm right back there with you John. Cute game though, reminds me of the old Kill Barney game a few years ago.

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