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05-28-2009, 05:22 AM   #31
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply Matt. That is more like the kind of debate I am interested in starting. Some of my comments were motivated by the testers that are out there and some of their comments. And also by similar ergonomics on other units I have used. So, yes, I am taking all of that into account, as much as possible.

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
One point I thought particularly weak along those lines was the one about the repositioning of the EV button.
I prefer to make a motion with a finger while holding down a thumb, rather than the other way around. In any case, this violates the principle of arbitrary changes, which I will explicitly outline in my next article.

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Some of the other comments can be pretty much refuted outright, though, I gotta say — like the one about the placement of the play button. It's in a great place where your thumb might be while you're holding the camera to review — but isn't where your thumb should be while you're shooting. It should be around front supporting the lens. (I've found this works better even with a light prime.)
You are completely correct. Re-reading this point I have no idea what I was thinking. I have corrected this but retained the text to show my own error.

I prefer web articles to be dynamic evolving entities and not static hunks of text. That's one of the reasons I write in blog format and post so much here on the forums. Sometimes it is worth retaining an old article as a statement at a particular time, within a historical context. Sometimes it is better to provide a follow-up with new opinions or ideas reconsidered. In still other cases changing the article itself is the best course. I have used all of these strategies.

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
And as for the AF.S/C/MF thing: they can't say AF: S/C/M, because M isn't A. They'd have to say F: AS/AC/M or something like that, and it still wouldn't fit. Or something. Anyway I think that falls under "looking for trouble".
I see what you mean, but when it comes to short labels, complete consistency is not necessarily something that can be achieved. That is demonstrated in the rest of the interface. Or else why have text labels for some UI items and icons for others? That is a glaring inconsistency but no-one minds. I suppose then, that rather than labeling the three positions "S", "C" and "M" with "AF" marked on the switch, the switch could have a focus icon. It is a matter of exchanging one inconsistency for another.

Admittedly this is a small point. But I find it clumsy and inelegant that one of the labels has been forcibly truncated. I'd rather suggest a solution than just state the problem.

05-28-2009, 06:00 AM   #32
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Re: EV button placement

For a K100D user like myself the EV button placement does not provide any problems as it is in a relatively unchanged location. Not having used a K200D or KM I would think that the EV button placement is similar to all the single e-dial models. So the interface upgrade path from KM-->??-->K7 interface wise makes sense.
05-28-2009, 08:13 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by MrApollinax Quote
For a K100D user like myself the EV button placement does not provide any problems as it is in a relatively unchanged location. Not having used a K200D or KM I would think that the EV button placement is similar to all the single e-dial models. So the interface upgrade path from KM-->??-->K7 interface wise makes sense.
A good point.

I found the button use less ergonomic on the K100DS, which is at least consistent with my position.

I have just finished a far more rigorous article outlining my Ten Interface Design Principles. Had I not been working through the issues myself, this should have appeared earlier to provide a better framework for discussion.
05-28-2009, 08:33 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fl_Gulfer Quote
Pentax said the K7 was not a replacement to the K20d. It is a new line of camera. A new camera will be out by the end of the year to replace the K20d without the Movie junk. But should have much improved stats. They also said they have no intensions on building a FF camera in the near future. I thought everyone read that interview months ago.
Adding the video features costs minimal amounts on a camera that supports Live View.

Selling a new highend model without these features in the current market is suicide for that model.

So the K-7 is the start of a "new line" of cameras that "will not replace" the K10D/K10D line.

Just like the Nintendo DS was a "new line" of gaming systems that would be Nintendo's "third pillar" and was "not a replacement for the Game Boy Advance". Despite that, there have been two refreshes of the DS since its original release, and only one new Game Boy system (the GBA Micro) released, and at this point there are almost no new GBA games being developed, nor are very many GBA systems sold. Despite Nintendo's claims otherwise, the DS replaced the Game Boy.

I cannot see any way that the K-7 could be anything but a replacement for the K20D.

05-28-2009, 09:10 AM   #35
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I don't think the k-7 will be replacing the k200d. As others have said, its going to be Pentax's new flagship model, but the K20D will still be available to others who do not need the features of the k-7. Although I am suprised they made the k-7 smaller, which you dont usually see when making a higher end camera, usually their pro consumer cameras are smaller.
05-28-2009, 09:32 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
K10 and K20 are Ps of S but they are my Ps of S.
If I end up getting a K7, that will also be a P of S but it will be my P of S.

You know what though? I'm really happy with the Photos my Ps of S take.

At least they are firm, solid P's of S instead of the plasticky P's of S that the other guys make.
And I bet you think your S don't stink.
05-28-2009, 09:49 AM   #37
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"Point of Sale?"

05-29-2009, 06:16 AM   #38
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I may have missed it somewhere in here, but isn't the K7 a good bit smaller than the K20D? That was actually an important factor for me as it's also part of the reason I didn't go with the new Olympus E-620. The video stuff doesn't really matter to me.

And btw, I'm the proud new owner of a K20D! My first Pentax ever! Had just about every other camera system, but couldn't ingore the amazing value (read- bang for the buck) that the 20 offers. Either way. Just wanted to chime in with my .5 cents worth.

Scott

05-29-2009, 10:09 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by MC25 Quote
I don't think the k-7 will be replacing the k200d. As others have said, its going to be Pentax's new flagship model, but the K20D will still be available to others who do not need the features of the k-7. Although I am suprised they made the k-7 smaller, which you dont usually see when making a higher end camera, usually their pro consumer cameras are smaller.
I agree on the first highlighted point here. To replace £400 body with £1200 body wouldn't make any sense. And I think that thinking along the lines: K-7 is smaller then K20, so there "must" be bigger model coming to replace K20, is wrong.
I believe that K-7 IS replacement for K20. They will be runnign alongside for a while but not for too long.
And there we come to the second highlighted point. I don't think K-7 & K20 will co-exist for too long. Now that K200 is discontinued (or at least it's getting very hard to get) I believe K20 will go as soon as new model will come out. And I belive that next new model will be sitting somewhere between K200 and K20.

just my 2p
05-31-2009, 06:07 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by felixkh Quote
K-7 is a new range by Pentax
K20D is still in production
This whole K-7 vs K20D is very confusing. I understand and appreciate the technological improvements of the K-7, however, Pentax is officially stating:
1. There will be no K30D
2. The K-7 is not a K20D replacement
3. The K-7 is not designed to compete with the Canon 50D. In fact, it is stated that the K-7 is positioned *under* the 50D.
4. The K20D stays in production

What????

Okay, someone please riddle me this.
If a consumer is confronted with the decision to purchase:
a) K-7
b) K20D

Okay, let's assume that the K-7's initial additional cost is not a concern.

Why would anyone purchase the K20D? What is the purpose of keeping the K20D in production?
06-01-2009, 08:30 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
This whole K-7 vs K20D is very confusing. I understand and appreciate the technological improvements of the K-7, however, Pentax is officially stating:
1. There will be no K30D
2. The K-7 is not a K20D replacement
3. The K-7 is not designed to compete with the Canon 50D. In fact, it is stated that the K-7 is positioned *under* the 50D.
4. The K20D stays in production

What????

Okay, someone please riddle me this.
If a consumer is confronted with the decision to purchase:
a) K-7
b) K20D

Okay, let's assume that the K-7's initial additional cost is not a concern.

Why would anyone purchase the K20D? What is the purpose of keeping the K20D in production?
But how can the K-7's additional cost not be a concern? It's the choice between a K-7 body only, versus a K20D with a DA* 16-50mm f/2.8 (approx.). I believe the K-7 is being positioned to be the next tier up, if you will. Yes, they're both 14MP cameras, but what sets the K-7 apart from the K20D may not be worth twice the price to many people, especially if they are upgrading from a DSLR that's three or four years old. I believe the "hole" left by the K20D's departure would leave too great a gap between the K200D and the K-7.

Current (approx.) street costs, body only:

K-7 $1300
K20D $670
K200D $510
K2000 $460

I figure the K-7's cost will eventually settle out around $800-$900 over the next 9-12 months.


Also, speaking of tiers, look how the model designations seem to reflect that:

4 numerical digits, entry-level
3 numerical digits, next tier up
2 numerical digits, the next tier up
1 numerical digit, top of the line

I dunno...makes sense to me.
06-01-2009, 12:12 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
The K-7 was announced as a "concept camera" that would not replace the K20D.
Pentax said "new design" and "new concept", "not traditional design" and "not a direct replacement of the K20D". They also said there won't be a K20D replacement.
And as we can see, the K-7 is the flagship in a new serie.

QuoteQuote:
The follow-up for the K20D was instead to be about a year from now.
Not according to Pentax.
There will be a new camera in-between K-7 and K-m, where the K200D and K20D are today, but it is more of a K200D replacement than a K20D replacement.

QuoteQuote:
Then we had the rumours from an authoritative source that the K20D will be discontinued.
Yes, the K20D will continue be sold as the middle model between K-7 and K-m until the new middle model is released later this year. It can be said that the K20D is effectively the K200D replacement since the K200D is discontinued.

QuoteQuote:
Combine this with the fact that the K-7 is a concept camera with no concept other than perhaps trying to please everyone.
The concept of the K-7 was to make the world's smallest and most compact professional and weather sealed pro-built APS-C.
06-01-2009, 12:16 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
3. The K-7 is not designed to compete with the Canon 50D. In fact, it is stated that the K-7 is positioned *under* the 50D.
Where has Pentax stated that?
The K-7 sells for more than the 50D, but less than the D300.
And in several reviews and news on internet, the K-7 is compared to 50D, D300 and Olympus E-3.

QuoteQuote:
4. The K20D stays in production
Yes, because the K20D is the "new" middle model between the K-7 and the K-m. The K200D is discontinued. The K20D will be sold to fill the gap between the K-7 and K-m until the new middle model comes, but the new middle model will be more of a K200D upgraded with K-7 features than a follow up to K20D.

QuoteQuote:
Okay, someone please riddle me this.
If a consumer is confronted with the decision to purchase:
a) K-7
b) K20D

Okay, let's assume that the K-7's initial additional cost is not a concern.

Why would anyone purchase the K20D? What is the purpose of keeping the K20D in production?
Without the K20D, Pentax has a big gap between the K-m and the K-7.
With K20D, this gap is filled. For those that can't afford the K-7, but wants something more advanced than the entry level K-m, the K20D is still a good buy.
06-01-2009, 01:21 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
3. The K-7 is not designed to compete with the Canon 50D. In fact, it is stated that the K-7 is positioned *under* the 50D.
I've searched everywhere on Canon's website, and I couldn't find anything about this - could you point to the correct location?
06-01-2009, 05:24 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fl_Gulfer Quote
Pentax said the K7 was not a replacement to the K20d. It is a new line of camera. A new camera will be out by the end of the year to replace the K20d without the Movie junk. But should have much improved stats. They also said they have no intensions on building a FF camera in the near future. I thought everyone read that interview months ago.
This is the first I heard about this. Do you have a reference for this sort of statement?

I understood that the K-7 is not a replacement for the K20D (like you stated), however, there is no actual replacement for the K20D. The K-7 is essentially an improvement over the K20D and there are no other cameras [better than the K-7] planned for the foreseeable future.

Now, take what I say with a 'grain of salt' this is not a quote... only a rumor.

It's a little frustrating. The K-7 seems to be nearly what I need.... but it begs the question, if there is a more advanced K-7 like (or K20D replacement)... when is it coming, and what differences are expected?

Perhaps I am being impatient.
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