K-7 replace K20d? or not?

Cosmo · 05-23-2009, 01:51 PM

I'm pretty sure the K7 isn't an upgrade of the K20D, I think Pentax are going to make a K30D for spring 2010.

PentaxPoke · 05-23-2009, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo

I'm pretty sure the K7 isn't an upgrade of the K20D, I think Pentax are going to make a K30D for spring 2010.

If they do, I'll bet it is a camera between the km and k-7.

From the interviews I've read, and looking at the latest 2 Pentax DSLR's, I think Pentax is saying "we are out of the 'me too' DSLR business." They are going small, sleek, light, durable, weathersealed, with no compromises in performance, while the rest of the field keeps simply adding features to lumbering bodies. That is why I think they said the K-7 is not a replacement for the k20d. Their camera line is going in a different direction, so there is no direct replacement for the k20d per se.

Just my opinion.

K100Dave · 05-23-2009, 02:31 PM

Something to me just doesn't feel like this is the replacement for the K20d, I feel as if Pentax was going after the Olympus E-30 and the Nikon D90 with the K7D.

Damn Brit · 05-23-2009, 06:05 PM

K10 and K20 are Ps of S but they are my Ps of S.
If I end up getting a K7, that will also be a P of S but it will be my P of S.

You know what though? I'm really happy with the Photos my Ps of S take.

At least they are firm, solid P's of S instead of the plasticky P's of S that the other guys make.

mattdm · 05-23-2009, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

If they do, I'll bet it is a camera between the km and k-7.

From the interviews I've read, and looking at the latest 2 Pentax DSLR's, I think Pentax is saying "we are out of the 'me too' DSLR business." They are going small, sleek, light, durable, weathersealed, with no compromises in performance, while the rest of the field keeps simply adding features to lumbering bodies. That is why I think they said the K-7 is not a replacement for the k20d. Their camera line is going in a different direction, so there is no direct replacement for the k20d per se.

Just my opinion.

Since your opinion matches exactly with statements from Pentax/Hoya, it seems like a pretty safe bet. In fact, I will bet dollars to donuts that there will not be 1) a camera named K30D ever or 2) a Pentax camera spec'd higher than the K-7 before its replacement is due. (Probably 18 months. Maybe sooner.)

PentaxPoke · 05-23-2009, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by mattdm

Since your opinion matches exactly with statements from Pentax/Hoya, it seems like a pretty safe bet. In fact, I will bet dollars to donuts that there will not be 1) a camera named K30D ever or 2) a Pentax camera spec'd higher than the K-7 before its replacement is due. (Probably 18 months. Maybe sooner.)

Thanks Matt. It seems like I am not the only one that interpreted the Pentax interviews that way! I think if others read those interviews they would see the exciting new direction that Pentax is going. I think ultimately it will have more mass appeal as long as the marketing, engineering, and quality control can keep up.

cheers · 05-23-2009, 10:17 PM

pentax needs sales volume in a hurry and badly. they're not launching a camera higher than k7d until either it's replacement is due or the digital 645 is done. my guess is reworking of the k200d to follow the industrial design of the k7d (as much as possible with a plastic body) with all the latest sorts of bits in it (movie mode, new dust features, hdr, etc.). i'd guess they'll ask samsung for another sensor as sony doesn't make any for movie mode yet. price it between the km and the k7

nickthetasmaniac · 05-24-2009, 03:24 AM

given the K-7's specs, body type and price, I can't see room for a KxxD to be marketed above it, especially not by the years end...
What are you going to add? The only things that are arguably lacking to make K-7 a fully 'pro' level APS-C camera are 1/250 sync, more focus points and 14bit RAW, and i don't think these would be enough differentiation to create and sell a whole new body.

Much more likely i think is a K200D replacement with a similar body to K-7, but more basic specs. So a sealed, plastic version of the K-7 body, 1/4000 shutter, 720p video, 4.5ffs, etc etc etc, priced at around $950USD.

This would target it at the Nikon D90/Olympus e620 market, while the K-7 goes off after the Canon 50D/Nikon Dxxx big boys of APS-c

**ManuH** · 05-24-2009, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by gemini

but the new K-7 will replace K20d?

Yes, John Carlson from Pentax said on the dpreview forums:

"As I have said before, there is no K30. The K-7 started out being called the K30, but Pentax soon realized it was much more than a replacement to the K20D, but a big step forward."

The question is now how the middle-level camera between the K-m and the K-7 will look like and how many features it will keep from the K-7.

PentaxPoke · 05-27-2009, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by Cosmo

I'm pretty sure the K7 isn't an upgrade of the K20D, I think Pentax are going to make a K30D for spring 2010.

More confirmation here from John C, right on our own forum. k30d speculation can finally end. If you don't believe us, maybe you will believe Pentax:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/61649-there-will-no-k30.html

**rparmar** · 05-27-2009, 04:38 PM

It is all rather confusing.

The K-7 was announced as a "concept camera" that would not replace the K20D. The follow-up for the K20D was instead to be about a year from now. Then we had the rumours from an authoritative source that the K20D will be discontinued. Combine this with the fact that the K-7 is a concept camera with no concept other than perhaps trying to please everyone.

Who knows really?

But I think the K20D will remain superior in two important ways: price and interface. On the latter see my newest blog article. It is hard to disagree, however, that on features the K-7 is a definite improvement.

PentaxPoke · 05-27-2009, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

But I think the K20D will remain superior in two important ways: price and interface. On the latter see my newest blog article.

Boy you sure had a chip on your shoulder when "evaluating" the K-7. Especially considering the fact that you have admittedly never actually touched the camera!

OregonJim · 05-27-2009, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

But I think the K20D will remain superior in two important ways: price and interface. On the latter see my newest blog article.

How can you 'evaluate' things like interface design and ergonomics without ever having physically seen, touched, or handled the camera? Especially a camera that hasn't even gone into production yet - the interface is not set in stone you know...

**rparmar** · 05-27-2009, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

Boy you sure had a chip on your shoulder when "evaluating" the K-7. Especially considering the fact that you have admittedly never actually touched the camera!

Originally posted by OregonJim

How can you 'evaluate' things like interface design and ergonomics without ever having physically seen, touched, or handled the camera? Especially a camera that hasn't even gone into production yet - the interface is not set in stone you know...

Yes, I admitted not using the camera. Would you rather I didn't admit my limitations? Does this disqualify me from noting that a button has moved and the impact this has?

I notice neither of you address any of the issues I brought up, only slag me for trying a critique. It's actually quite easy to evaluate certain aspects of interface without touching the camera. And since every piece of Pentax gear I have bought has been bought sight unseen, I would never even have bought into Pentax if I had done anything other than what I am doing now. Given how many stores carry Pentax, you are dooming the brand if you require everyone to have used a camera before evaluating it... as best we can.

As a great proponent of Pentax I am not sure how I could have a "chip on my shoulder" in this regard. Perhaps you care to explain? Or maybe it is you who have too emotional an attachment to your gear. Can't you see obvious flaws right in front of your eyes?

Me, I prefer to give credit where it is due and call Pentax on other areas. The physical UI looks to be a step back on the K-7 compared with the K20D. Put a camera in my hands and I'll see if my opinion changes. I can send you my address if you can arrange shipping.

mattdm · 05-27-2009, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

The K-7 was announced as a "concept camera" that would not replace the K20D. The follow-up for the K20D was instead to be about a year from now. Then we had the rumours from an authoritative source that the K20D will be discontinued. Combine this with the fact that the K-7 is a concept camera with no concept other than perhaps trying to please everyone.

I don't think there was anything but speculation on the second part there — that the K20D follow up would instead be a year from now. That was just conjecture from the "K-7 won't be a K20D replacement" comments. Some people thought that implied that something eventually would be. It turns out now that the other interpretation — there won't be a direct replacement ever — was correct. Seems pretty straightforward in retrospect.

Originally posted by rparmar

Yes, I admitted not using the camera. Would you rather I didn't admit my limitations? Does this disqualify me from noting that a button has moved and the impact this has?

It's hard to judge these things for good or bad without having it in one's hands. So for the same reason people are skeptical of your critique, they're skeptical of making a counterargument without having tried it. That, again, seems perfectly consistent.

Originally posted by rparmar

I notice neither of you address any of the issues I brought up, only slag me for trying a critique. It's actually quite easy to evaluate certain aspects of interface without touching the camera.

The argument is that at least some of the aspects which you are criticizing may not be so easy after all — or that the critique will fall away when the camera is actually in your hands, but the blog post will remain.

One point I thought particularly weak along those lines was the one about the repositioning of the EV button. I just tried with the green button on my K10D (it's in approximately the same place) and it's just as easy to hold it with my index finger and spin the back dial with my thumb as it is to hold the current EV button with my thumb and spin the front wheel with my finger. Could be even easier depending on the size and shape of the grip, which will be really hard to tell.

The lock on the mode dial is the same — without having played with it, I have no idea how fiddly it is to unlock and adjust. May be a major pain, may be inconsequential. Can't tell.

Same with the bracketing. JCPentax implies on dpreview that it's actually easier and faster with the new interface. Could be — we'll have to see. And same again with the positioning of the LV switch.

Some of the other comments can be pretty much refuted outright, though, I gotta say — like the one about the placement of the play button. It's in a great place where your thumb might be while you're holding the camera to review — but isn't where your thumb should be while you're shooting. It should be around front supporting the lens. (I've found this works better even with a light prime.)

And as for the AF.S/C/MF thing: they can't say AF: S/C/M, because M isn't A. They'd have to say F: AS/AC/M or something like that, and it still wouldn't fit. Or something. Anyway I think that falls under "looking for trouble".

Originally posted by rparmar

And since every piece of Pentax gear I have bought has been bought sight unseen, I would never even have bought into Pentax if I had done anything other than what I am doing now. Given how many stores carry Pentax, you are dooming the brand if you require everyone to have used a camera before evaluating it... as best we can.

Point taken here, but wouldn't it be better to wait and ask questions of people who do have the camera?

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05-23-2009, 01:51 PM	#16
Cosmo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 488	I'm pretty sure the K7 isn't an upgrade of the K20D, I think Pentax are going to make a K30D for spring 2010.

05-23-2009, 02:00 PM	#17
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by Cosmo I'm pretty sure the K7 isn't an upgrade of the K20D, I think Pentax are going to make a K30D for spring 2010. If they do, I'll bet it is a camera between the km and k-7. From the interviews I've read, and looking at the latest 2 Pentax DSLR's, I think Pentax is saying "we are out of the 'me too' DSLR business." They are going small, sleek, light, durable, weathersealed, with no compromises in performance, while the rest of the field keeps simply adding features to lumbering bodies. That is why I think they said the K-7 is not a replacement for the k20d. Their camera line is going in a different direction, so there is no direct replacement for the k20d per se. Just my opinion.

05-23-2009, 02:31 PM	#18
K100Dave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 111	Something to me just doesn't feel like this is the replacement for the K20d, I feel as if Pentax was going after the Olympus E-30 and the Nikon D90 with the K7D.

05-23-2009, 06:05 PM	#19
Damn Brit Guest	K10 and K20 are Ps of S but they are my Ps of S. If I end up getting a K7, that will also be a P of S but it will be my P of S. You know what though? I'm really happy with the Photos my Ps of S take. At least they are firm, solid P's of S instead of the plasticky P's of S that the other guys make.

05-23-2009, 06:22 PM	#20
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by PentaxPoke If they do, I'll bet it is a camera between the km and k-7. From the interviews I've read, and looking at the latest 2 Pentax DSLR's, I think Pentax is saying "we are out of the 'me too' DSLR business." They are going small, sleek, light, durable, weathersealed, with no compromises in performance, while the rest of the field keeps simply adding features to lumbering bodies. That is why I think they said the K-7 is not a replacement for the k20d. Their camera line is going in a different direction, so there is no direct replacement for the k20d per se. Just my opinion. Since your opinion matches exactly with statements from Pentax/Hoya, it seems like a pretty safe bet. In fact, I will bet dollars to donuts that there will not be 1) a camera named K30D ever or 2) a Pentax camera spec'd higher than the K-7 before its replacement is due. (Probably 18 months. Maybe sooner.)

05-23-2009, 07:34 PM	#21
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by mattdm Since your opinion matches exactly with statements from Pentax/Hoya, it seems like a pretty safe bet. In fact, I will bet dollars to donuts that there will not be 1) a camera named K30D ever or 2) a Pentax camera spec'd higher than the K-7 before its replacement is due. (Probably 18 months. Maybe sooner.) Thanks Matt. It seems like I am not the only one that interpreted the Pentax interviews that way! I think if others read those interviews they would see the exciting new direction that Pentax is going. I think ultimately it will have more mass appeal as long as the marketing, engineering, and quality control can keep up.

05-23-2009, 10:17 PM	#22
cheers New Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 9	pentax needs sales volume in a hurry and badly. they're not launching a camera higher than k7d until either it's replacement is due or the digital 645 is done. my guess is reworking of the k200d to follow the industrial design of the k7d (as much as possible with a plastic body) with all the latest sorts of bits in it (movie mode, new dust features, hdr, etc.). i'd guess they'll ask samsung for another sensor as sony doesn't make any for movie mode yet. price it between the km and the k7

05-24-2009, 03:24 AM	#23
nickthetasmaniac Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,361	given the K-7's specs, body type and price, I can't see room for a KxxD to be marketed above it, especially not by the years end... What are you going to add? The only things that are arguably lacking to make K-7 a fully 'pro' level APS-C camera are 1/250 sync, more focus points and 14bit RAW, and i don't think these would be enough differentiation to create and sell a whole new body. Much more likely i think is a K200D replacement with a similar body to K-7, but more basic specs. So a sealed, plastic version of the K-7 body, 1/4000 shutter, 720p video, 4.5ffs, etc etc etc, priced at around $950USD. This would target it at the Nikon D90/Olympus e620 market, while the K-7 goes off after the Canon 50D/Nikon Dxxx big boys of APS-c

05-24-2009, 03:50 AM	#24
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by gemini but the new K-7 will replace K20d? Yes, John Carlson from Pentax said on the dpreview forums: "As I have said before, there is no K30. The K-7 started out being called the K30, but Pentax soon realized it was much more than a replacement to the K20D, but a big step forward." The question is now how the middle-level camera between the K-m and the K-7 will look like and how many features it will keep from the K-7.

05-27-2009, 04:17 PM	#25
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by Cosmo I'm pretty sure the K7 isn't an upgrade of the K20D, I think Pentax are going to make a K30D for spring 2010. More confirmation here from John C, right on our own forum. k30d speculation can finally end. If you don't believe us, maybe you will believe Pentax: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/61649-there-will-no-k30.html

05-27-2009, 04:38 PM	#26
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	It is all rather confusing. The K-7 was announced as a "concept camera" that would not replace the K20D. The follow-up for the K20D was instead to be about a year from now. Then we had the rumours from an authoritative source that the K20D will be discontinued. Combine this with the fact that the K-7 is a concept camera with no concept other than perhaps trying to please everyone. Who knows really? But I think the K20D will remain superior in two important ways: price and interface. On the latter see my newest blog article. It is hard to disagree, however, that on features the K-7 is a definite improvement.

05-27-2009, 04:49 PM	#27
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by rparmar But I think the K20D will remain superior in two important ways: price and interface. On the latter see my newest blog article. Boy you sure had a chip on your shoulder when "evaluating" the K-7. Especially considering the fact that you have admittedly never actually touched the camera!

05-27-2009, 05:49 PM	#28
OregonJim Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon Posts: 1,327	Originally posted by rparmar But I think the K20D will remain superior in two important ways: price and interface. On the latter see my newest blog article. How can you 'evaluate' things like interface design and ergonomics without ever having physically seen, touched, or handled the camera? Especially a camera that hasn't even gone into production yet - the interface is not set in stone you know...

05-27-2009, 06:02 PM	#29
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,823	Originally posted by PentaxPoke Boy you sure had a chip on your shoulder when "evaluating" the K-7. Especially considering the fact that you have admittedly never actually touched the camera! Originally posted by OregonJim How can you 'evaluate' things like interface design and ergonomics without ever having physically seen, touched, or handled the camera? Especially a camera that hasn't even gone into production yet - the interface is not set in stone you know... Yes, I admitted not using the camera. Would you rather I didn't admit my limitations? Does this disqualify me from noting that a button has moved and the impact this has? I notice neither of you address any of the issues I brought up, only slag me for trying a critique. It's actually quite easy to evaluate certain aspects of interface without touching the camera. And since every piece of Pentax gear I have bought has been bought sight unseen, I would never even have bought into Pentax if I had done anything other than what I am doing now. Given how many stores carry Pentax, you are dooming the brand if you require everyone to have used a camera before evaluating it... as best we can. As a great proponent of Pentax I am not sure how I could have a "chip on my shoulder" in this regard. Perhaps you care to explain? Or maybe it is you who have too emotional an attachment to your gear. Can't you see obvious flaws right in front of your eyes? Me, I prefer to give credit where it is due and call Pentax on other areas. The physical UI looks to be a step back on the K-7 compared with the K20D. Put a camera in my hands and I'll see if my opinion changes. I can send you my address if you can arrange shipping.

05-27-2009, 08:55 PM	#30
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by rparmar The K-7 was announced as a "concept camera" that would not replace the K20D. The follow-up for the K20D was instead to be about a year from now. Then we had the rumours from an authoritative source that the K20D will be discontinued. Combine this with the fact that the K-7 is a concept camera with no concept other than perhaps trying to please everyone. I don't think there was anything but speculation on the second part there — that the K20D follow up would instead be a year from now. That was just conjecture from the "K-7 won't be a K20D replacement" comments. Some people thought that implied that something eventually would be. It turns out now that the other interpretation — there won't be a direct replacement ever — was correct. Seems pretty straightforward in retrospect. Originally posted by rparmar Yes, I admitted not using the camera. Would you rather I didn't admit my limitations? Does this disqualify me from noting that a button has moved and the impact this has? It's hard to judge these things for good or bad without having it in one's hands. So for the same reason people are skeptical of your critique, they're skeptical of making a counterargument without having tried it. That, again, seems perfectly consistent. Originally posted by rparmar I notice neither of you address any of the issues I brought up, only slag me for trying a critique. It's actually quite easy to evaluate certain aspects of interface without touching the camera. The argument is that at least some of the aspects which you are criticizing may not be so easy after all — or that the critique will fall away when the camera is actually in your hands, but the blog post will remain. One point I thought particularly weak along those lines was the one about the repositioning of the EV button. I just tried with the green button on my K10D (it's in approximately the same place) and it's just as easy to hold it with my index finger and spin the back dial with my thumb as it is to hold the current EV button with my thumb and spin the front wheel with my finger. Could be even easier depending on the size and shape of the grip, which will be really hard to tell. The lock on the mode dial is the same — without having played with it, I have no idea how fiddly it is to unlock and adjust. May be a major pain, may be inconsequential. Can't tell. Same with the bracketing. JCPentax implies on dpreview that it's actually easier and faster with the new interface. Could be — we'll have to see. And same again with the positioning of the LV switch. Some of the other comments can be pretty much refuted outright, though, I gotta say — like the one about the placement of the play button. It's in a great place where your thumb might be while you're holding the camera to review — but isn't where your thumb should be while you're shooting. It should be around front supporting the lens. (I've found this works better even with a light prime.) And as for the AF.S/C/MF thing: they can't say AF: S/C/M, because M isn't A. They'd have to say F: AS/AC/M or something like that, and it still wouldn't fit. Or something. Anyway I think that falls under "looking for trouble". Originally posted by rparmar And since every piece of Pentax gear I have bought has been bought sight unseen, I would never even have bought into Pentax if I had done anything other than what I am doing now. Given how many stores carry Pentax, you are dooming the brand if you require everyone to have used a camera before evaluating it... as best we can. Point taken here, but wouldn't it be better to wait and ask questions of people who do have the camera?