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05-26-2009, 07:15 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cosmo Quote
Full frame cameras are pro cameras.

APS-C just can't compete, therefore they are semi-pro.
No, 8X10 contact prints are "pro". Everything else is a compromise and I'm sure that everyone who makes their living in photography has a reason for making their compromises where they do.

05-26-2009, 07:31 AM   #47
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Maybe it's semi-pro because it's got the automatic mode (green mode). The pro cameras only have Program, Aperture, Shutter and Manual. Semi-pro models have Automatic and/or scene modes.
05-26-2009, 09:40 AM   #48
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I define a pro photographer as someone who lives off his work. An amateur is someone who needs a second jobs to support him.

QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
No, 8X10 contact prints are "pro". Everything else is a compromise and I'm sure that everyone who makes their living in photography has a reason for making their compromises where they do.
Haha, it's hard to argue with that, but I'm still gonna stick with full frame being the line between pro and semi-pro.
05-26-2009, 09:45 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
No, 8X10 contact prints are "pro". Everything else is a compromise and I'm sure that everyone who makes their living in photography has a reason for making their compromises where they do.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

And I will add: People who use the tiresome misnomer "full-frame" don't deserve a 135-size digital sensor.

05-26-2009, 10:01 AM   #50
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Dictionary definition......

Professional:

Adjective:

QuoteQuote:
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime
'nuff said on the subject, really !

Best regards
Richard
05-26-2009, 10:03 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cosmo Quote
I define a pro photographer as someone who lives off his work. An amateur is someone who needs a second jobs to support him.

I completely agree with that definition. But that still leaves a very wide range of needs within the "pro" ranks. I know one pro who shoots articles for travel magazines. He uses an APS-C camera with REALLY great lenses. Another pro I know shoots ads and has recently begun publishing photo books. He used to use a Hasselblad and a Pentax 6X7, switched over to an APS-C camera, then went FF because he liked the extra cropping room. Another guy makes his living shooting kids' sports pics. He uses what most of us would consider an amateur camera and an 18-200 lens. Basically, pros use whatever works for their purposes.
05-26-2009, 10:04 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
No, 8X10 contact prints are "pro". Everything else is a compromise and I'm sure that everyone who makes their living in photography has a reason for making their compromises where they do.
QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote

Additionally, the top two, have a masive pro-suport network. Lenses to rent, repair service etc. This is about catering to the specific market needs for the type of photographer that needs and demands the absolute best service and product money can buy.
It has everything to do with high specs, advertising, money, service chanels, and downstream market control.
That's it right there. A "Pro" camera has little to do with the hardware or specs of the camera. It's about the support/service network. If your body or lens craps out 2 days before a shoot that your livelihood depends on, then you need to know that overnight you can get it repaired or a loaner sent to you.

I have a Pro notebook computer. The specs and hardware are decent but I could find a gaming notebook that outperforms it. The design is very blah, I could find a sleeker, slimmer consumer model. The differences with my notebook are that the (1) the hardware is relatively stable and reliable, (2) the drivers and BIOS are constantly updated and (3) the support is amazing.

Since I have had this computer, I have had 4 main incidents:
(1) When I received the new computer, the HDD was irritatingly noisy. I called the manufacturer and they overnighted a different HDD and offered to send a technician to my home office to install it (which I declined).
(2) After installing the new HDD, I had trouble reinstalling the OS. I called their support line and spoke to a native English-speaking tech on my continent. I was connected to the tech person in less than 2 minutes. He spent a full 60 minutes on the phone talking me through the full OS install.
(3) After 1.5 years, my GPU started going. I called tech support at 4:30PM. They overnighted a new motherboard to my city and a tech service person was at my house at 10:30AM to install the new motherboard and was done by 11:00AM.
(4) Power brick died, new one was overnighted.

All parts, service and shipping were fully covered under warranty. That is pro service.
05-26-2009, 10:13 AM   #53
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Yeah, to have a pro camera, you need to be able to deliver a pro service. I don't think Pentax can deliver that, not now.

05-26-2009, 10:55 AM   #54
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Has Pentax ever delivered a pro service? I could be wrong, but I don't think they did. Yet that didn't stop thousands of pros from using 6X7's and 645's. Frankly, I think that Pentax's lack of extra long telephotos is more of a limiting factor to their infiltration of the pro ranks than service or image quality.
05-26-2009, 11:19 AM   #55
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I think that the K-7 should be called an "advanced user" camera rather than Pro or Semi-Pro, as that is what it is, same goes for the D300, EOS 40D/50D, E-30/E-3 etc.

Pro spec and this is where is gets confusing, are the D3 and EOS 1D. Olympus made this mistake calling the E-3 "Pro" and got ridiculed by the photo press.
However as in a previous post, Pro in the strictest sense is someone who makes their sole income from Photography. However, they could be using a K-m or EOS 450D (I know quite rare, but thats where their starting point could be). For example, a friend of mine is a Pro photographer, and does have the EOS 1D mk3, but also the 5D and even a 350D that she uses from time to time.

On the other hand "advanced user" would, and indeed, does, state a camera which is superior to an entry level DSLR, such as removal of scene modes, custom white balance, faster shutter speed, better build, increased frame rate, larger body (yes the K-7 is larger than all entry level bodies), more features, etc etc.

So, in reality we have, in DSLR land, the Entry Level, the Advanced (of various levels) and the Top Spec, but in marketing speak, as not to confuse the man/woman on the street, they relate to the Starter, semi-pro and pro. Oh the joys of marketing!

As a footnote, I have made some money selling images with the following - the *istDs (an entry level DSLR), Fuji's S6500 and S5000 (compact bridge camera's) and K10/K20D cameras (Semi-pro/advanced). So the real answer is, is its not what camera you have in your hand, but how you use it.
05-26-2009, 11:25 AM   #56
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Forgot one thing, Pentax service.

Currently no replacement kit whilst yours is in repair.

My K20D took 3 1/2 weeks to come back, but this was due to Pentax changing their repairs from in-house in Slough, to a third party in Stoke (and very helpful too), so were in transistion. I sent mine to Slough first, so this is the delay, but once part arrived and my camera arrived in Stoke, it was in reality 4 working days. Pretty good really. Just a shame Pentax currently don't have replacement loan kit yet. But neither do Canon! (my friends Mk3 went back with 4 day turnaround, but no temp body, and the 5D was damaged, and still took 3 weeks) So, it could be that Pentax don't have a too bad a repair service in comparison to the majors......
05-26-2009, 11:29 AM   #57
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What do you call the "pros" shooting sports with a Canon 1D MKIII?



QuoteOriginally posted by Cosmo Quote
I define a pro photographer as someone who lives off his work. An amateur is someone who needs a second jobs to support him.



Haha, it's hard to argue with that, but I'm still gonna stick with full frame being the line between pro and semi-pro.
05-26-2009, 12:33 PM   #58
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Good point egordan, My friend is not a pro as she uses a EOS 1D mk3 with its APS-H?
what about benjikan, he uses a K20D, which is APS-C, is he not pro?

Cosmo, A pro as someone who uses a camera and takes photos as their sole income. it does not matter what the camera is. Remember, prior to the D3, Nikon "Pro" DSLR's were APS-C and not full frame, and many photographers did, and still do make a living with these.
Also, do you consider the Nikon D700, Canon EOS 5D mk2 and Sony A900 "Pro" cameras?

Anyway, what about Leaf, Hasselblad, Cambo et al. would they, with their larger sensors over the full frame, relegate 35mm to "amateur" status?
05-26-2009, 01:16 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by David Quote
I would like to the hear the argument for a clear distinction between a Pro and Amateur photographer. The former makes a living and the latter takes photos???

David
Pro comes from professional, means people who makes a living from photography.
Amateur means in a photography as a pastime rather than as a profession.

So if you take pictures at a park and giving people instant prints without even knowing what the DOF means, you are still a professional.

But if you are into photography, having vast amount of knowledge about it, but you are not making enough money even as a part time job, you are an amateur.

Most societies grasp these concept using these words in this way, if you are a professional you should know more about what he is doing so professionals always knows better than amateurs, and should have better and more expensive tools than amateurs (e.g. cameras here). So Pro's should have most expensive and advance cameras.

Companies are not an exception using these words in this way. They will always call their top of the line cameras as Pro cameras. When they have 80MP cameras their 24MP cameras will be called amateur or semi-pro cameras.

Thats about it.

Best wishes to all.
05-26-2009, 01:18 PM   #60
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Something to ponder:

A pro-spec'd camera does not make a person a pro.

A Pro using a lesser camera does not make the camera pro-spec'd.

Pro's can use any camera they like, and still be a pro.

-----------------------

But a pro camera needs to be at the top of the current technology, have ALL the features, and have the service network to back it up.

So, to all those who repeat the old cliche "it's not the camera, it's the photographer", no, this does not apply in the case of how the camera is placed in the market.

"Pro-Camera" is still a pro-camera if it is sitting on a shelf, being used on football sidelines, or is in the hands of a newbie in his first photo class.
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