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05-30-2009, 03:14 PM | #91 |
You know, I tried to read this thread through but gave up and skipped here to the end to ask "why is it still going?" | |
05-30-2009, 04:53 PM | #92 |
Welcome to the Church of Pentax, pity is it's followers seem quite vocal in all Pentax related fora.
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05-30-2009, 05:55 PM | #93 |
OP should sell off his "heavy" K20D and get the Pentax K-m or perhaps even switch brands... last I heard many of their entry-level models have very light mostly plastic offerings...
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05-30-2009, 07:27 PM | #94 |
@TwoLegged I don't want to beat a dead horse, but what is wrong with a K-M/K2000 if you're looking for a light weight landscape camera? You say it has unneeded features that just add clutter... but then again, they don't add weight. The K2000 is as equally well built as the K20d and the K10D before it. They all have stainless steel chassis with fiber-reinforced polycarbonate shells. If your shooting style is slow and deliberate, as I gather from you description, then what about the K2000 would hamper you? You sound like you don't need the speed you'd get from twin dials and I'm sure the K2000 has Manual, AV and TV modes. So what is it missing that your ME has...besides a pentaprism? I had a Bronica RF645 that I considered(as do most others) extremely compact and lightweight for medium format camera, but by your standards, it was a monster. I also have a Chamonix 45n-1 field camera that is also considered a feather in it's class, it's carbon fiber, aluminum, and maple... it's 3.25-3.5 lbs without a lens. It's all relative! I don't think people are being defensive fanboys, they're instead taking offense with your rationale. The people who have responded in defense of the K-7 read the marketing and formed logical opinions about what that camera was and would offer. As I said earlier and I mean no offense by it, you are the only one that has seemed to overhype it. It is just not logical to compare to a 30 year old film camera that doesn't offer the same level of sophistication or features. This is why I take offense to your thread title, OP, and logic. I have a feeling I'm not the only one. Would I like it to be lighter... sure why not, but I think it's a pretty impressive feat that they have managed to make it so compact and dare I say, "Lightweight". I think you feel the same way, so why obsess over a simple marketing term? You might be an advertisers worst nightmare . I can't help but feel that had they said the new K-7 was compact and heavy instead, you'd have started a thread using your ME or K20D as a comparison to prove just how lightweight it actually is... Just kidding. Last edited by Vertex Ninja; 05-30-2009 at 07:44 PM. | |
05-30-2009, 07:30 PM | #95 |
Curse you smart phone! Why must you blink your green light every time there is an update to this thread!!! | |
05-30-2009, 08:41 PM | #96 |
and do even think the lenses? think the whole system, not just the camera.. DA* lenses with weathershield is large and heavy.. why should even make less weight camera? | |
05-30-2009, 10:15 PM | #97 |
b) I dunno why you out scare quotes around "heavy". The K20D is 60% heavier than an ME Super. You might regard that weight as an unavoidable consequence of digital technology or as a good thing, but it's not a fiction b) The other brands can't use my old lenses, and offer no weight advantage c) The K-M has no weather-sealing, and since DSLRs don't work with a handy all-in-one case like a film SLR, I regard that as crucial, since electronics don't like water. (My assumption is that an unsealed old film SLR is more likely to survive a little water ingress than an unsealed dSLR). To get weather-sealing, the lightest option was the K200D, which does have weather-sealing and dust-removal, but is still stuck with a small pentamirror rather than a pentaprism. Not so good for the low-light shots I like, and a step backwards from my ME Super. I had a Bronica RF645 that I considered(as do most others) extremely compact and lightweight for medium format camera, but by your standards, it was a monster. I also have a Chamonix 45n-1 field camera that is also considered a feather in it's class, it's carbon fiber, aluminum, and maple... it's 3.25-3.5 lbs without a lens. It's all relative! I haven't insulted anyone's mother, criticised their photographic style or abilities, or suggested that they are using a camera which doesn't do the job. So why all the "taking offense", as you put it? First, my primary comparator in starting this thread was not a 30-year camera, but the three-year-old K20D, with very similar level of technologies. Both are digital SLRs with weather-sealing, image stabilisation, dust removal, pentaprism, rear screen, same size sensor using the same technology, and a raft of control buttons. Most of the differences are in the electronics and software, which may add a little weight, but can reasonably be expected to be at least partially offset by the constantly improving performance of modern electronics (see Moore's Law) -- my current low-end dual-core laptop is about the same weight as its predecessors over the last 17 years, but has several hundred times the processing power of the 16-bit, 12MHz model I had in 1992 -- so I don't assume that improved image-processing means more weight in my camera when it doesn't do that on my laptop. The non-electronic things which may affect weight are minor: a screen with 25% greater area but a much higher-resolution, one extra button (I think it's only one), an AF illumination lamp, and that's about it (apart from the video mode, and we'll have to wait and see whether that feature is more successful than on the Nikon D90). So there's a perfectly good case for expecting that a new camera can offer a lot more digital wizardry than a 3yo old one, without any weight gain. There may be some particular quirks of digital imaging systems which make that assumption problematic wrt cameras, but it does seem to be broadly applicable to the history of these devices. Secondly, it's not at all illogical to compare devices using different technologies, as I did later on. The K7 and the ME Supper are both devices for taking pictures, and can use the same lenses. Digital offers some advantages, and it may be that the a weight trade-off is one of the prices to be paid; but it's an odd sort of logic to say, as you seem to be doing, that a weight comparison is off-limits when comparing two devices which capture the light as a still image. | |
05-30-2009, 11:41 PM | #98 |
There you go again. They read it one way, I read it another. Maybe both views are right (depending on priorities or perspective), maybe one or other view is wrong, but you describe your view as "logical" and mine as "overhype" ... which is a very mischievous way of characterising someone who questions whether an advertising claims stands up to scrutiny. First, my primary comparator in starting this thread was not a 30-year camera, but the three-year-old K20D, with very similar level of technologies.... The non-electronic things which may affect weight are minor: a screen with 25% greater area but a much higher-resolution, one extra button ... So there's a perfectly good case for expecting that a new camera can offer a lot more digital wizardry than a 3yo old one, without any weight gain. Secondly, it's not at all illogical to compare devices using different technologies, as I did later on. The K7 and the ME Supper are both devices for taking pictures, and can use the same lenses... but it's an odd sort of logic to say, as you seem to be doing, that a weight comparison is off-limits when comparing two devices which capture the light as a still image. I'm curious why you choose to only respond to people when they voice an opinion that challenges your own. Why not respond to me when I ask about the K2000, you know... the whole first half of my last post. Instead you choose to hang on to the little things... Wait, now I kinda see how this thread got started. | |
05-31-2009, 06:29 AM | #99 |
I do still shoot film, but I also shoot digital. There you go yet again. You choose to say that you are "offended", but when challenged on why my view offends you, you claim I'm "trolling". There's a very simple solution: own your own words. If you meant "take offence", stick to it, and if you didn't mean "take offence", then withdraw the phrase. You started a thread that suggested everyone has had the wool pulled over their eyes, everyone but you that is. I've asked it 2 or 3 times already but what exactly was your intent with this thread? Why the title? Did you expect to be showered with praise for discovering the secret that pentax has hyped a product they are trying to sell. OOOOh the horror! Pentax is trying to sell its product, so it'll describe in a way it thinks most likely to boost sales. Nothing unusual there, that's standard marketing practice. I thought that potential purchasers would be interested in assessing whether those claims stand up to scrutiny. I didn't expect people to respond as if they had been personally insulted. It's quite true that nobody is forcing me to buy a K7 ... and similarly nobody is forcing you not to buy a K7. Ah, the reductio-ad-absurdam technique. The Hubble cannot be carried around on foot, and the spy camera has little or no user control of exposure, no interchangeable lens. They aren't tools which can be used for he same job as user-controlled portable camera. You either didn't read what I wrote or chose to ignore it. And because of that you accuse me of bad faith? | |
05-31-2009, 08:13 AM | #100 |
I did read your post about the K200d, but that's not the K-M. If weather sealing is so important to you, do you use only WR lenses? Did you shoot your ME in the rain or bad weather? Weren't you afraid of ruining the meter or growing fungus or haze in your lenses? Don't think I'm trying to push a K-M on you, I'm not. I've never even held or shot one. I was just curious why you thought it wouldn't work for you in situations were your ME does. There you go yet again. You choose to say that you are "offended", but when challenged on why my view offends you, you claim I'm "trolling". There's a very simple solution: own your own words. If you meant "take offence", stick to it, and if you didn't mean "take offence", then withdraw the phrase. Replace with "disagree" if you like, would it really make a difference? I'm not offended in the strictest form of the definition, surely you've heard of exaggerations? I think you are trolling because you have spent more time responding to people who "respond as if they had been personally insulted" than "calmly discussing" Pentax's marketing terms. You could take your own advice and ignore these responses and continue your calm higher level discussion. Instead those responses by people who "respond as if they had been personally insulted" are what you cling to, which leads me to believe that those are the responses you actually wanted all along. You don't have to agree with me, that's just how I see it. But I'm sure you'll respond to this with something about "faith" and me being rude, mischievous, and condescending, but that's cool, you're entitled to your opinion. I apologize to those that read my nonsense, I wish I could give you your time back. @ Twolegged I'm sorry to derail your thread into a petty argument. I realize it takes two to tango, so I'll stop replying. Enjoy your thread. | |
05-31-2009, 01:42 PM | #101 |
06-02-2009, 09:49 AM | #102 |
Whats the price range in UK and in the Euro region to be like?
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06-03-2009, 08:22 AM | #103 |
If the other board members will indulge me in putting words in their mouths, this is how I (and I believe others) read your statements: Post 1 People say the K-7 is lightweight, but it weighs similarly to the current best camera, you shouldn't be happy and excited they added features without adding weight. Most people reacted pretty lightheartedly at this point and mostly pointed out new features and other advantages, with only a few comments that the premise that of the K20D being heavy wasn't well accepted. Post 2 and Post 3 The K-7 is good, but compared to a film camera, it's just ginormous! Therefore, anyone being happy about the size of the K-7 is wrong and silly. Saying it's small just by comparing it against every other digital camera available is wrong, because you should compare it against my own arbitrary standard of awesomeness, one of the best and smallest film cameras of its kind. This is when you got people's dander up, because the comparison doesn't make sense. Everything past that was an attempt by you to claim BOTH that the features of the DSLR made it a superior choice, but the fact that those features add weight is unacceptable. The entire time you made this argument, you STILL insisted on overlooking the simple fact that the total weight of the K-7 is less than the weight of your arbitrary comparison camera with an equivalent amount of film. You took umbrage with Pentax's description of the camera as lightweight because they didn't clearly state assumptions that they were comparing against other digital DSLR, and then ignored or rebutted any attempts by forums members to make your standard of the Pentax Super ME more reasonably by adding in equivalent features, like the film, the automatic winder, range finders, light meters, a video camera, etc. In fact, the closest you came to addressing those points is by acknowledging that they were true, but that they didn't matter because you personally don't take a lot of rolls of film with you on nature walks (Here and here). The point everyone is trying to make is simple: DSLR have features that film cameras do not; adding even more features while reducing weight and making a more comfortable and ergonomic form factor is exciting news. The K-7 is extremely lightweight by current standards for the features it provides. It's perfectly fine for you to wish you could have all those features in an even smaller package, and you probably will get closer to your wish in the next upgrade of the K-m. The K-m which you rejected for not having a feature your film camera also doesn't have, which users of other brands have been remedying for decades with almost weightless plastic bags. Basically, people are reacting badly because you're using a camera that wasn't designed for your needs, and giving the impression that it's a flaw with the camera and not a flaw with your choice. | |
06-03-2009, 08:55 AM | #104 |
It's also.... Pretty silly to complain about the weight difference between, say, a K20d and K200d, then complain the K200d only has a pentamirror, when in fact, the glass prism you want *is a solid piece of glass and probably the single heaviest component involved.* I don't know about you, but for any given camera, I'd gladly carry that piece of glass around. I think, Two-Legged, a lot of us have lost some patience for people coming on here simply to slag on Pentax, especially if it creeps out of the 'News and Rumors' forum. The K20 is lighter and more compact than any competitors with the same amount of controls: the images are comparable to real pricey beasts like D300s and 5ds: and, yes, the K20d has a lot more capability than the starter-level cameras from other brands that people try to compare on size. The K-7 is even lighter and smaller than *that.* I frankly can't see what you even *want,* ...your demands seem a bit contradictory for the state of the tech. Really, a lot of folks want a serious camera to feel solid, and that takes some weight, anyway. Frankly, when shooters of other brands handle my K20d, they always remark on the good feel. That's kind of an old slogan Pentax could bring back, 'Just hold a Pentax' or some such. I just can't see the cause for fuss, or why you single out Pentax. | |
06-03-2009, 10:19 AM | #105 |
Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus |
Well this seems to have gone on long enough and I think the thread has beaten it self to death. Before it gets any more heated or people get pissed at each other, I'm going to close the thread. If anyone objects, send me a PM and make a convincing argument to reopen this.
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