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03-24-2010, 05:06 PM   #406
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Meh, an extra stop. Not that big a deal.
I've been huffing over high ISO for some time now and the Kx is the first Pentax that can produce uncompromised ISO6400 prints. The K20D was ISO3200 and the K200 was 1600. But that(extra stop) is something impressive to have.

03-24-2010, 05:16 PM   #407
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Meh, an extra stop. Not that big a deal.
I dunno - on my K10 I couldn't shoot above 400 and get good quality, above 800 and it really started artifacting. On the K-x I can shoot at 6400 and the artifacts look mostly like film grain. It's not just the extra stop, IMO
03-24-2010, 05:52 PM   #408
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A bit blurry, but probably more my fault than the camera's (I was riding in a boat, after all)...

Anyway... from my latest trip to Disneyland:

K-x, ISO 6400
03-24-2010, 08:03 PM   #409
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
I've been huffing over high ISO for some time now and the Kx is the first Pentax that can produce uncompromised ISO6400 prints. The K20D was ISO3200 and the K200 was 1600. But that(extra stop) is something impressive to have.
JB, I just hope that Pentax does offer a fullframe this year or before the year ends. from what I could say, the 5D MkII is really becoming tempting as a primary body. especially if we could use some Pentax glasses on it, thanks to some modified mount adapters for sale.

03-24-2010, 08:28 PM   #410
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I am impressed with the Kx, but not as impressed with many who see it as having superior high ISO. For high ISO comparing, one must view files at %100 to do any real analyzing. The %100 shots I have seen done with the Kx show heavy smearing of detail--the cost for producing images which, at least at first glance, look less "noisey." IMO, Pentax changed it philosophy with the Kx and started applying NR in doses previously only used in C & N camps. What I love about my K20d, is I can shut off NR, shoot Raw, and then decide for myself if any NR will be applied with 3rd party software, which produce better results anyway. I like some grain in my high ISO shots, especially when more detail is preserved. This will always be the issue: NR vs detail.

Of course, to be competitive, Pentax must produce images which please the eyes of the average consumer--I understand this, which is why I treasure even more the autonomy Pentax afforded its users with its K20d. Just my opinion, though I'll be the first to concede my tastes with respect to noise are not in the majority. Best!
03-24-2010, 09:27 PM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
I am impressed with the Kx, but not as impressed with many who see it as having superior high ISO. For high ISO comparing, one must view files at %100 to do any real analyzing. The %100 shots I have seen done with the Kx show heavy smearing of detail--the cost for producing images which, at least at first glance, look less "noisey." IMO, Pentax changed it philosophy with the Kx and started applying NR in doses previously only used in C & N camps. What I love about my K20d, is I can shut off NR, shoot Raw, and then decide for myself if any NR will be applied with 3rd party software, which produce better results anyway. I like some grain in my high ISO shots, especially when more detail is preserved. This will always be the issue: NR vs detail.

Of course, to be competitive, Pentax must produce images which please the eyes of the average consumer--I understand this, which is why I treasure even more the autonomy Pentax afforded its users with its K20d. Just my opinion, though I'll be the first to concede my tastes with respect to noise are not in the majority. Best!
true. but also the discussion about pixel resolution and NR. how many of us do really print more than the standard 5R? or display their image (whether full or cropped) on a 15"+ monitor/tv as a digital picture frame ? at the end of the day, we see people prefer a camera simply because it is the best, but haven't really used it's true potential. in small prints or small display, there isn't really any noticeable difference as to IQ. images needs to be shown in it's full capacity inorder to see any difference and warrant it's use.
03-24-2010, 11:51 PM   #412
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I think the high ISO performance of the K20d is as good as that of the Kx. I chose this shot because it really tests ISO since it is full of dark shadows. It is of a Giant Pacific Octopus, which is very sensitive to light, so much so that the aquarium has this special lighting you see here. The shot is not underexposed--it is exposed to show the scene as it looked. It also is not a Black & White conversion--the shot lacks color because of the special lighting. 4 images follow:

Image 1) the original shot, no NR, just downsizing for forum
Image 2) the original shot, with Neat Image NR, which strips exif
Image 3) %100 crop of Image 1 exif in tact
Image 4) %100 crop of Image 2 exif stripped

Note how the first 2 images, at this small size, can not be distinguished from one another. But note how easy it is to tell the crops apart. But even Neat Image, which is much better than in-camera noise reduction, steals detail in order to smear out noise. Take a look at Kx images from ISO 3200 to ISO 6400 at %100 resolution--note the serious smearing and loss of details.

I shot the image with NR off in the K20d, though I think, automatically, when shooting @ 3200 ISO, the K20d adds a minimal NR anyway.

EXIF for the shot 90mm, 1/10th, iso 3200, f4, handheld
Attached Images
   
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PENTAX K20D  Photo   

Last edited by Jewelltrail; 03-25-2010 at 08:51 AM.
03-25-2010, 07:13 AM   #413
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
I think the high ISO performance of the K20d is as good as that of the Kx. I chose this shot because it really tests ISO since it is full of dark shadows. It is of a Giant Pacific Octopus, which is very sensitive to light, so much so that the aquarium has this special lighting you see here. The shot is not underexposed--it is exposed to show the scene as it looked. It also is not a Black & White conversion--the shot lacks color because of the special lighting. 4 images follow:
We really should't hijack this thread into a noise discussion, however... there are a number of issues in this demonstration regarding noise performances from the Kx vis-a-vis a K20. The first and more obvious is that all Pentax camera's apply NR at higher ISO.

However what really stands out here is that the illustration is based on desktop NR rather than RAW data detail. thus negating the possibilities of drawing an objective conclusions from the sample.

Another issue(possibly) is that I don't see a Kx vs K20 in these samples. I mean... for what it's worth, I could post very good ISO4000 K20D output as evidence that it is somehow better so long as there is no Kx equivalent.

Nevertheless.. the only way to to draw accurate conclusions from this would be to see samples in RAW with NR off on both camera's under the exact same shooting conditions. Otherwise... the results remain up in the air.

PS. I find the comparometer to be a very good source of such tests online. If you head out there and grab the RAW/DNG NR0 ISO3200 and 6400 samples for Kx and K20D, you will quickly see that the kx out resolves the K20 by a wide margin of detail. And this is coming from as die hard K20 fan.

Nice picture btw!

03-25-2010, 08:49 AM   #414
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QuoteQuote:
JohnBee: We really should't hijack this thread into a noise discussion, however... there are a number of issues in this demonstration regarding noise performances from the Kx vis-a-vis a K20. The first and more obvious is that all Pentax camera's apply NR at higher ISO.

However what really stands out here is that the illustration is based on desktop NR rather than RAW data detail. thus negating the possibilities of drawing an objective conclusions from the sample.

Another issue(possibly) is that I don't see a Kx vs K20 in these samples. I mean... for what it's worth, I could post very good ISO4000 K20D output as evidence that it is somehow better so long as there is no Kx equivalent.

Nevertheless.. the only way to to draw accurate conclusions from this would be to see samples in RAW with NR off on both camera's under the exact same shooting conditions. Otherwise... the results remain up in the air.

PS. I find the comparometer to be a very good source of such tests online. If you head out there and grab the RAW/DNG NR0 ISO3200 and 6400 samples for Kx and K20D, you will quickly see that the kx out resolves the K20 by a wide margin of detail. And this is coming from as die hard K20 fan.

Nice picture btw!
It is our thread--I did entitle it "Pentax High ISO Gallery"--I could ammend it with the 2 words "& discussion." I agree though, I do not want to turn this thread into an all-out "My Camera is Better Than Your Camera." So, after this explanation of my above post, I will not contribute any more commentary on high ISO for these 2 cameras--here.

Thanks for your response--mucho appreciate it. Ok, firstly, I shot this in Raw with NR off, then converted the image in a downsize for forum--no PPing whatsoever. Then, iin the 2nd image, I ran the original Raw through Neat Image first, afterwards downsizing for our forum with no other PPing. I just want to be clear about this--sorry if I wasn't in the original post.

Next, I was going to post a Kx sample as well, but realized it would do little to actually objectify the discussion. After all, as I clearly state in my post, "I think the high ISO performance of the K20d is ay least as good as that of the Kx." This is my opinion--nothing more. I realize there are many more opinions which will never agree with mine and my post is not intended to convert anyone.

As we all know, you can not create "accurate connditions" for real world shooting--not really, anyway. I often visit the Image Resource and its "Comparometer" to get general feelings on a particular camera's ISO look. But, above all else, we must bear in mind the conditions they create are artificial, and are not real world shooting. ISO has been and probably always will be a hotly debated topic. for this very reason.

I did spend a good deal of time researching the Kx for its ISO capabilities. I was thinking of picking one up soley for this purpose. But my research ended in the conclusion that the Kx is no better at higher ISO than is the K20d. I engaged some earlier discussion at this forum here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/90731-kx-advice-sought.html

I do not see people posting KX High ISO images, in %100 crops too often--I do welcome any here in this thread, with or without noise reduction--thanks.

Thank you for your insightful commentary and for your compliment,
03-25-2010, 09:31 AM   #415
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I didn't read all comparisons between the K20D and K-x, but find it quite funny when you compare pictures under very different conditions. Why not comparing apples w/ apples?

ISO 3200, NR OFF...

K20D:


K-x:
03-25-2010, 11:18 AM   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
I do not see people posting KX High ISO images, in %100 crops too often--I do welcome any here in this thread, with or without noise reduction--thanks.
I noticed that also, but I was always under impression that it was mainly due to the obvious nature of the test. I mean... that's how I see it at least

Also on the issue of artificial conditions, I don't know that a setup scene with artificial lighting would impede our ability to evaluate a camera's noise performance since both camera's would be performing the same tasks and thus we'd have the power of contrasting observations at our disposal. Though I would like to see someone carry out controlled tests between both camera's in both real world and studio conditions for this purpose. I think it may prove to be useful. Though already with different sensors, we can establish that the testing methods would most likely never be exact between the two camera's(shutter speeds etc).

Having said that, my wife now uses Kx for herself and I have two K20's on hand. And if I could ever muster-up enough get-up and go, I might try to set something up between the two camera's for the sake of science and discovery.

But if I had to guess, I'd say the Kx holds 1.5 stops over the K20D in noise performance across the board and... 1 stop of DR in the shadow regions across the board. But... what I can't substantiate is less detail(sharpness) at ISO3200 and beyond. Because the Comparometer samples show significantly more on the Kx than the K20 in this regard. How much is up for grabs, but lets just say that its enough to make my K20D feel bad.
03-25-2010, 03:42 PM   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by Xcessiv Quote
I didn't read all comparisons between the K20D and K-x, but find it quite funny when you compare pictures under very different conditions. Why not comparing apples w/ apples?

ISO 3200, NR OFF...

K20D:


K-x:
Hmm, I see noisier grey but cleaner black and more detail in the stamp in the K20D photos.
03-25-2010, 03:45 PM   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
But if I had to guess, I'd say the Kx holds 1.5 stops over the K20D in noise performance across the board
I'd have to see some proof of that. I own both but I haven't had time to test. I'm thinking 2/3 stop, maybe a full stop.
03-25-2010, 04:15 PM   #419
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1/6000
F13
ISO 6400
Auto WB
18mm focal length
Used in camera b&w conversion but also did some levels, brightness/contrast and USM in CS3

03-25-2010, 07:19 PM   #420
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I do not own a KX, But I do have a K20D a K-7 and a D300S and the the K20D and D300S are about the same in the noise dept, but are both ahead of the K-7 by quite a bit.
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